Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
danieLion
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by danieLion »

tiltbillings wrote:It is, however, best not to take ourselves too seriously.
Words to live by Tilt.
Thanks
Moggalana
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Moggalana »

Thanks for those links, marc108 :)
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marc108
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by marc108 »

Moggalana wrote:Thanks for those links, marc108 :)

You're welcome.

I really really enjoyed the talks on Jhana by Richard Shankman. He really gives an extremely detailed and precise description of the Visuddhimagga Jhanas vs the Sutta Jhanas both from their respective texts and his own experience. There is probably somewhere to the tune of 25 hours of talks on this subject alone.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
ignobleone
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by ignobleone »

marc108 wrote: I really really enjoyed the talks on Jhana by Richard Shankman. He really gives an extremely detailed and precise description of the Visuddhimagga Jhanas vs the Sutta Jhanas both from their respective texts and his own experience. There is probably somewhere to the tune of 25 hours of talks on this subject alone.
Be careful, sutta commentaries can be misleading for some topics. IMO it's better to rely only on the Suttas.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by tiltbillings »

ignobleone wrote:
marc108 wrote: I really really enjoyed the talks on Jhana by Richard Shankman. He really gives an extremely detailed and precise description of the Visuddhimagga Jhanas vs the Sutta Jhanas both from their respective texts and his own experience. There is probably somewhere to the tune of 25 hours of talks on this subject alone.
Be careful, sutta commentaries can be misleading for some topics. IMO it's better to rely only on the Suttas.
This is not an uncommon sentiment here; however, one can also easily mislead oneself by relying on the suttas. The commentaries are tools, and like any set of of tools, some work well and others not so much.

If you are only to rely on the suttas, then I would suppose that you have mastered Pali and all its idiomatic quirks, so that you do not have to rely on translators' interpretations and biases in their interpretations, and that you have a good working understanding of early Buddhist history, so as to understand the context of many of the teachings so as to understand better what is being said, and I would think that you would have a really strong grounding in actual practice, and I would also think you would always being willing to entertain the possibility in whatever interpretation you might come to you could be wrong, and I would think that you would recognize that whatever meditative/insight experience you might have is one more thing to let go.
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

tiltbillings wrote:If you are only to rely on the suttas, then I would suppose that you have mastered Pali and all its idiomatic quirks, so that you do not have to rely on translators' interpretations and biases in their interpretations, and that you have a good working understanding of early Buddhist history, so as to understand the context of many of the teachings so as to understand better what is being said, and I would think that you would have a really strong grounding in actual practice, and I would also think you would always being willing to entertain the possibility in whatever interpretation you might come to you could be wrong, and I would think that you would recognize that whatever meditative/insight experience you might have is one more thing to let go.
I agree, these are reasons why relying exclusively on the suttas is probably unwise.

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ignobleone
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by ignobleone »

Spiny O'Norman wrote: I agree, these are reasons why relying exclusively on the suttas is probably unwise.
Spiny
To assert validity, the Buddha taught two principles: logical inference (common sense) and factual reason (based on reality or real experience). I don't rely on sutta commentaries and at least it's backed by those reasons.
Logical inference: The suttas already have inherent possibility of biases due to the translation/dictionary limitation and they have been transmitted from generation to generation from oral tradition. The commentaries came after the sutta, which means commentaries add more bias possibility. So, based on this common sense sutta is more reliable than commentary.
Factual reason: it is obvious, I found more than one fact that commentaries are misleading since they aren't consistent with the sutta. For an example, the the terms Samatha and Vipassana are none to be found in the main Nikayas and have made dichotomy.
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by daverupa »

ignobleone wrote:the terms Samatha and Vipassana are none to be found in the main Nikayas
AN 2.30:
"These two qualities have a share in clear knowing. Which two? Tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana).

"When tranquillity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Passion is abandoned.

"When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Discernment is developed. And when discernment is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned.

"Defiled by passion, the mind is not released. Defiled by ignorance, discernment does not develop. Thus from the fading of passion is there awareness-release. From the fading of ignorance is there discernment-release."
...and so forth.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
ignobleone
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by ignobleone »

daverupa wrote:"These two qualities have a share in clear knowing. Which two? Tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana).

"When tranquillity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Passion is abandoned.

"When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Discernment is developed. And when discernment is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned.

"Defiled by passion, the mind is not released. Defiled by ignorance, discernment does not develop. Thus from the fading of passion is there awareness-release. From the fading of ignorance is there discernment-release."
...and so forth.[/quote]
Well, thanks so much daverupa, at last I can find the pali passage which mentions both terms. I thought they couldn't be found.
Ok now the literal meaning is no longer a problem (to me). How about the dichotomy of samatha and vipassana. Even when I went to the country with a lot of Buddhist monks (Thailand) the monks think vipassana is like a shortcut to nibbana while samatha is a long, time consuming path. I believe it's caused by the commentaries, since Theravada schools these days are inseparable from commentary. I can mention more examples if anyone is interested.
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Kumara »

tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote: The Experience of Samādhi: An In-depth Exploration of Buddhist Meditation by Richard Shankman. He contrasts the teaching methods of a diverse number of contemporary teachers with what is presented in the suttas.
It is a good book, but it is disappointing that he does not talk about U Pandita's notion of the vipassana jhanas.
He mentioned about that in a talk. I vaguely recall him saying he believes that what Sayadaw U Pandita calls "vipassanā jhāna" is the "sutta jhāna". I suggest that you search for the talk: http://www.google.com/search?q=shankman+jhana+mp3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The term "vipassanā jhāna" appears in the commentaries to a few Khuddaka Nikāya texts. (Orthodox Theravāda considers this term to be the same as what the commentaries call "lakkhaṇūpa­nij­jhāna", which appears far more often.) So, "vipassanā jhāna" is not a new term as some believe, but started no later than the 5th century AD.
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manas
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

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nyana wrote:There are a couple of points worth mentioning here. Firstly, these five strands of sensual pleasure are all external sensory objects. As such, they correspond to objects within the five external sensory spheres (bāhirāyatanā). Thus, these five sensory objects do not include in-and-out breathing, which is considered internal, nor the internal felt-sense of the body. The strands of sensual pleasure also do not include the apperception of foulness with regard to the thirty-one parts of the body and the nine stages of corpse decomposition. Apperception of foulness is a mental phenomenon.

Secondly, these five strands of sensual pleasure are those external sensory objects that are considered to be desirable, lovely, agreeable, endearing, sensually enticing, and tantalizing. And so it isn’t all sensory objects whatsoever that the meditator need to withdraw from. The meditator needs to withdraw from those external sensory objects which are sensually enticing and tantalizing, as stated here. This withdrawal is facilitated by removing oneself from inappropriate environments for meditation and by abandoning the hindrance of desire for sensual pleasure (kāmacchanda). Both are necessary prerequisites for entering the first jhāna.
This was way back on the first page, but with your explanation you have clarified and put into words something I have been pondering on and trying to sort out for quite a while; my thanks to you.

:namaste:
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Alex123
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Alex123 »

In Pāḷi Nikāyas, such as AN6.60 , Jhāna is temporary state that does not destroy defilements.

A monk, master of 4 jhānas can disrobe due to sensual desire:
There is a possibility that a huge storm with rain should come from the east, from the west, ... re ... from the north, ... re ... from the south. They will arouse waves in the pond. In like manner, a certain person secluded from sensual desires ... re ... attains to the fourth higher state of mind (catutthaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati). Thinking I am the gainer of the fourth higher state of mindhe mixes up with the bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, lay disciples male and female. kings and the ministers of kings, with those of other faiths and their disciples. Abiding with that association, diffused and engaged in talk, the mind touched with greed and corrupted he would give up the holy life and come to low life. - AN6.60 Hatthisāriputtasuttaṃ

On the other hand, if monk develops satipaṭṭhāna, then he will not be tempted to disrobe:
when a bhikkhu is developing and cultivating the four foundations of mindfulness, kings or royal ministers, friends or colleagues, relatives or kinsmen, might invite him to accept wealth, saying: ‘Come, good man, why let these saffron robes weigh you down? Why roam around with a shaven head and begging bowl? Come, having returned to the lower life, enjoy wealth and do meritorious deeds.’ Indeed, friends, when that bhikkhu is developing and cultivating the four foundations of mindfulness, it is impossible that he will give up the training and return to the lower life. For what reason? Because for a long time his mind has flowed towards seclusion, sloped towards seclusion, inclined towards seclusion. Thus it is impossible that he will give up the training and return to the lower life. SN52.8 (8) The Salaḷa-tree Hut BB Trans
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Zom
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Zom »

Satipatthana actually leads to jhana ,)
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manas
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by manas »

Alex123 wrote:In Pāḷi Nikāyas, such as AN6.60 , Jhāna is temporary state that does not destroy defilements.
Hi Alex,

yes that's correct, but I also read so very often about how jhana gives the mind the strength and clarity with which to penetrate to insight. So we need to be careful that we don't disregard the importance of jhana just because it isn't a permanent state. (I'm not suggesting you were disregarding jhana's importance, but I have heard it disregarded before, for the reason given above, despite Buddha's oft-sounded instruction to "go, do jhana!").

:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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manas
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by manas »

Zom wrote:Satipatthana actually leads to jhana ,)
The anapanasati section of the satipatthana sutta does seem to lead in that direction, imho (was that what you meant?) But taking it further - as I understand it, the Path to Nibbana is eightfold, meaning that we need both satipatthana (samma sati) and the jhanas (samma samadhi), just as we also need samma ditthi, samma sankappa, samma vaca, ... etc. I don't know why Buddhists sometimes argue over 'satipatthana vs jhana' as if there is actually any conflict...we need both, don't we?

:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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