MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

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perkele
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Re: MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

Postby perkele » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:54 pm


vinasp
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Re: MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

Postby vinasp » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:08 am

Hi Mike,

From a book which I am reading - on the Personalists:

"Kosa VI #57: ... or else samaya means "time": the first five Arhats are
susceptible to falling from deliverence (vimukta), they are therefore
delivered for a time (kalantara), and so are samayavimukta, the sixth
Arhat (cf Kosa VI #56) is not susceptible to falling from deliverence,
he is therefore definitively delivered (atyantavimukta), and so is
asamayavimukta." [ footnote 256 page 61 ]

I cant make much sense of this. What are these six types of Arhats?
At least there is one type which has permanent liberation. It is all
very complicated so I will not try to pursue it any further here.

The other schools were probably not saying that all arahants can fall
from their attainments, only some. But were they even using the term
arahant in the same way?

Regards, Vincent.

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mikenz66
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Re: MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:49 am

Hi Perkele, Vincent,

Thanks for the quotation, Vincent. As I said, Ven Sujato only mentioned in passing that there was disagreement between sects over the possibility of an arahant "falling from deliverence". This is consistent with your quotation, which seems to imply that some arahants are "safe" and others are not.

Ven Sujato specifically mentioned the Sarvastivadins as one of the sects that held a different view from the Theravada regarding Arahants.

I have no further information on the subject, but I think that it is important to recognise that the suttas of different sects evolved over time and some of the changes may be a result of doctrinal arguments. I.e. the suttas may have been changed to support the doctrine of the sect. It's not so black and white that the derived doctrine is in the commentaries and abhidhamma and the suttas are untouched.

:anjali:
Mike

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mikenz66
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Re: MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:35 am

So this holy life, bhikkhus, does not have gain, honour, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of virtue for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision as its benefit. But it is this unshakable deliverance of mind that is the goal of this holy life, its heartwood, and its end.

BB: "Unshakable deliverance of mind" is the fruit of arahantship according to MA.
Thus "perpetual liberation" --- as including all four paths and fruits --- has a wider range of meaning than "unshakable deliverance of mind", which alone is declared to be the goal of the holy life.


I have difficulty figuring out what exactly Bhikkhu Bodhi is saying here. Perhaps I'm not reading it correctly...

:anjali:
Mike

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Sam Vara
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Re: MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

Postby Sam Vara » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:08 pm


perkele
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Re: MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

Postby perkele » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:25 pm


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Sam Vara
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Re: MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

Postby Sam Vara » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:41 pm


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daverupa
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Re: MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

Postby daverupa » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:20 pm



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