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MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile - Dhamma Wheel

MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

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MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:48 am


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Re: MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:19 am


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Re: MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:37 am


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Re: MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:03 am


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Re: MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:33 pm


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Re: MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:53 pm


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Re: MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:24 pm

I went through this sutta today and made some notes quite rough but hope they are of use.

Twigs & leaves = gain, honour, & renown, this seams to indicate the positive worldly conditions so they are still moved by the world and firmly within it; unlikely to have any deep attainments but have either gained some form of understanding which they may or may not use to teach and gain support, but not necessarily essential as they may just be long in the homeless life and have things offered to them others may not receive due to age?

Outer bark = Virtue. Protected from the worldly conditions effecting them to an extent of breaking the precepts.

Inner Bark - concentration. not touched directly/effected all the time by the worldly conditions/hindrances.

Sapwood = Knowledge & vision. probably indicated someone who is a stream winner (maybe higher) as the Buddha specifically told the Stream winners to not be satisfied with the bliss of that attainment and to strive on with heedfulness in DN16. and they are protected from the extreme areas of the two extremes so do not go into the lower realms.

Negligence in the refrains does not seam to indicate they fall back from the level they are at, so they are knowledgeable or trained to a reasonable degree, virtuous, good meditators, have had insight... rather they are satisfied with this level of peace brought about by this knowledge... they have reached a plateau and don't look for more as they may believe they don't need to or that they are not capable of doing it?? or they may be fooled into thinking they have attained Enlightenment??

This sutta did remind me of another sutta where the Buddha uses the phrase "they are one in training still with more to do" but I can not remember the sutta, I did think it was MN53 the Sekha Sutta but I cheched and it isn't. although MN53 did also spring to mind in this reading.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:25 pm


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Re: MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:31 pm


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Re: MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:57 pm

To be honest I have no knowledge of trees anatomy so when I got past bark I realised I couldnt think of how these could relate as I don't know exactly what sap wood is or does :) so thank-you.

All I know about The Bo-Tree is that is has no heart wood :) Ajahn Buddhadasa points this out in the book Heart wood of the bo trea :) [edit} same for Palm trees.

oh and Maple syrup comes from the sap wood, and English long bows have both heart and sap wood, the sap wood gives it its spring! so is on the outside(?), and


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:11 am


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Re: MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:39 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:55 am


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Re: MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:04 am

at least there is some corroboration :)


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:34 pm


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Re: MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

Postby Sam Vara » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:49 am


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Re: MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:35 pm

Being diligent, he achieves knowledge and vision.

BB: "Knowledge and vision (nanadassana) here, according to MA, refers to the divine eye, the ability to see subtle forms invisible to normal vision.

Since the next step is complete liberation, it can't be referring to the knowledge and vision of an arahant at this point.

:anjali:
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Re: MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:50 am

Interesting discussion of this sutta by Ven Sujato here:
http://www.dhammanet.org/download.php?view.110
He reads extensively from the Vinaya account of Devadatta, which sets the scene for this sutta well. For example, it was from Vulture's Peak that Devatatta attempted to kill the Buddha with a boulder.
It includes the account of the incident with the elephant Nāḷāgiri that inspired this verse of the Buddha-jaya-maṅgala Gāthā: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=11333&p=171428#p171287

He also goes through the Pali for the key points.

[I had a nice walk on the beach today which was time to listen to the talk...]

Edit: See continued discussion at: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=11630&start=0

:anjali:
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Re: MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:06 am


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Re: MN 29 Maha Saropama Sutta: The Longer Heartwood-simile

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:32 pm



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