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The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma" - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
vinasp
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby vinasp » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:38 pm

Hi Mike,

There is one passage which explains the opening of the dhamma eye by
reference to the breaking of the first three fetters. This, of course,
includes sakkaya-ditthi, the first fetter. Which Bhikkhu Bodhi translates
as "identity-view".

I do not have the reference at hand, and would have to consult my notes.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:44 pm

Hi Vincent,

There are many places where stream entry is defined in terms of destroying self-view, so I wouldn't be surprised by that. However, here I was trying to examine the meaning of the "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma" passages I quoted in the OP.

:anjali:
Mike

vinasp
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby vinasp » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:05 pm

Hi Mike,

Dhamma also means nature. Some have translated that line as:

"Whatever is of a nature to arise, all that is of a nature to cease."

Do you want to compare different translations?

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:36 pm


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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby vinasp » Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:22 pm

Hi Mike,

I think that the difference between my interpretation and most peoples
understanding of these things, is the matter of the time scale.

For me, what the stream-enterer has understood, is that a great mass of
things which have arisen, over say the last twenty years, are capable
of ceasing. These are all the things which he is clinging to.

Now, these things cannot be experienced through the five senses, it is
even hard to see them in the mind.

If enlightenment is the cessation of all clinging, then the starting
point must be the understanding of how this is possible.

Understanding how it can be done, is seeing the path. Starting to do
it, is entering the path. Actually completing the task is completing
the path.

For me, it really has nothing to do with experience through the five
senses. And even where the mind is considered, it is not about things
arising and ceasing over some short time scale. The hundreds of things
which one is clinging to do not arise and cease all the time. They have
arisen, over twenty years. They can cease.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:14 am

Hi Vincent,

It's refreshing to have someone express a non-instantaneous view of arising and cessation. Personally, I think it's helpful to look at multiple time scales.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:22 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:10 am


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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:13 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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mikenz66
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:23 am


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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:34 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

vinasp
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby vinasp » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:36 am

Hi Mike, Retro,

What about a view, how long does that last?

Suppose someone has the eternalist view, could it not last for five,
ten, twenty years, or more?

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:36 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby pegembara » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:40 am

The sotapanna-Opening the Eye of Dhamma


The Buddha said that enlightenment of the Dhamma is just knowing Nature, the reality which is all around us, the Nature which is right here! If we don't understand this Nature we experience disappointment and joy, we get lost in moods, giving rise to sorrow and regret. Getting lost in mental objects is getting lost in Nature. When we get lost in Nature then we don't know Dhamma. The Enlightened One merely pointed out this Nature.

Having arisen, all things change and die. Things we make, such as plates, bowls and dishes, all have the same characteristic. A bowl is molded into being due to a cause, man's impulse to create, and as we use it, it gets old, breaks up and disappears. Trees, mountains and vines are the same, right up to animals and people.

When Añña Kondañña, the first disciple, heard the Buddha's teaching for the first time, the realization he had was nothing very complicated. He simply saw that whatever thing is born, that thing must change and grow old as a natural condition and eventually it must die. Añña Kondañña had never thought of this before, or if he had it wasn't thoroughly clear, so he hadn't yet let go, he still clung to the khandhas. As he sat mindfully listening to the Buddha's discourse, Buddha-nature arose in him. He received a sort of Dhamma "transmission," which was the knowledge that all conditioned things are impermanent. Any thing which is born must have aging and death as a natural result.

This feeling was different from anything he'd ever known before. He truly realized his mind, and so "Buddha" arose within him. At that time the Buddha declared that Añña Kondañña had received the Eye of Dhamma.

What is it that this Eye of Dhamma sees? This Eye sees that whatever is born has aging and death as a natural result. "Whatever is born" means everything! Whether material or immaterial, it all comes under this "whatever is born." It refers to all of Nature. Like this body for instance — it's born and then proceeds to extinction. When it's small it "dies" from smallness to youth. After a while it "dies" from youth and becomes middle-aged. Then it goes on to "die" from middle-age and reach old-age, finally reaching the end. Trees, mountains and vines all have this characteristic.

So the vision or understanding of the 'One who knows' clearly entered the mind of Añña Kondañña as he sat there. This knowledge of "whatever is born" became deeply embedded in his mind, enabling him to uproot attachment to the body. This attachment was sakkayaditthi. This means that he didn't take the body to be a self or a being, or in terms of "he" or "me." He didn't cling to it. He saw it clearly, thus uprooting sakkayaditthi.

And the vicikiccha (doubt) was destroyed. Having uprooted attachment to the body he didn't doubt his realization. Silabbata paramasa (attachment to rites) was also uprooted. His practice became firm and straight. Even if his body was in pain or fever he didn't grasp it, he didn't doubt. He didn't doubt, because he had uprooted clinging. When one uproots the view of the body being the self, grasping and doubt are finished with. If just this view of the body as the self arises within the mind then grasping and doubt begin right there.

So as the Buddha expounded the Dhamma, Añña Kondañña opened the Eye of Dhamma. This Eye is just the "One who knows clearly." It sees things differently. It sees this very nature. Seeing Nature clearly, clinging is uprooted and the 'One who knows' is born. Previously he knew but he still had clinging. You could say that he knew the Dhamma but he still hadn't seen it, or he had seen the Dhamma but still wasn't one with it.

At this time the Buddha said, "Kondañña knows." What did he know? He just knew Nature! Usually we get lost in Nature, as with this body of ours. Earth, water, fire and wind come together to make this body. It's an aspect of Nature, a material object we can see with the eye. It exists depending on food, growing and changing until finally it reaches extinction.

Ajahn Chah

Note that Kondanna's attainment did not occur during meditation but by penetrating to the truth through hearing the Buddha's discourse.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:00 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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mikenz66
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:01 am


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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:09 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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mikenz66
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:28 am

Hi Retro,

I don't see anything in my speculation inconsistent with the Suttas.

What do you think it means?

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:29 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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mikenz66
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:31 am

And what does it mean when you read it?

:anjali:
Mike


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