The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

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vinasp
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

One of the best Sutta's for understanding what the stream-enterer has
understood is SN 12.41
I will note the main points. [ Bhikkhu Bodhi, Connected Discourses, page 578]

1. A noble disciple can declare himself to be a "stream-enterer", when:

a) Five fears have subsided.

b) He possesses the four factors of stream-entry.

c) He has clearly seen and thoroughly penetrated with wisdom the noble
method.

Details of the third item (c) the noble method, is given below:

"And what is the noble method that he has clearly seen and thoroughly
penetrated with wisdom? Here, householder, the noble disciple attends
closely and carefully to dependent origination itself thus:"When this
exists, that comes to be: with the arising of this, that arises. When
this does not exist, that does not come to be; with the cessation of
this, that ceases. That is, with ignorance as condition, volitional
formations [come to be] .... Such is the origin of this whole mass
of suffering. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation
of ignorance comes cessation of volitional formations; .........
Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering."

It does not say that he has penetrated the four noble truths, but
this is because dependent origination is the detailed understanding
of the four noble truths.

Regards, Vincent.
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mikenz66
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by mikenz66 »

Ñāṇa wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Thanks Geoff,

Do you have a reference and/or any elaboration you'd care to share?
The simile of writing in water seems to be indicating basically the same thing in both cases, i.e. the non-substantiality of phenomena.
Oh, OK. Thanks for clarifying that it was the simile in particular you were referring to. I guess that could be a reasonably common simile. And, besides, Ajahn Amaro, at least, seems to have read widely (presumably also Ajahn Pasanno, but I'm less familiar with his teaching).

:anjali:
Mike
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mikenz66
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Vincent,
vinasp wrote: SN 12.41 [ Bhikkhu Bodhi, Connected Discourses, page 578]
"And what is the noble method that he has clearly seen and thoroughly
penetrated with wisdom? Here, householder, the noble disciple attends
closely and carefully to dependent origination itself thus:"When this
exists, that comes to be: with the arising of this, that arises. When
this does not exist, that does not come to be; with the cessation of
this, that ceases. That is, with ignorance as condition, volitional
formations [come to be] .... Such is the origin of this whole mass
of suffering. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation
of ignorance comes cessation of volitional formations; .........
Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.".
Yes, that's what I was getting at above http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 32#p173245" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; when I said that the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta contains the essence of Dependent Origination, so it may not be so surprising that Kondañña's utterance was to do with arising-cessation.

Normally, one would think of the important thing about stream-entry was penetration of not-self, but that is not explicitly discussed in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, though of course it is implied by Dependent Origination.

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by Cittasanto »

just to chip in my nonsense
to my understanding Dependent Arising correlates to the Second Noble Truth and Dependent Cessation with the Third Noble Truth, See DN22 for an example, and to check.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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mikenz66
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by mikenz66 »

Cittasanto wrote:just to chip in my nonsense
to my understanding Dependent Arising correlates to the Second Noble Truth and Dependent Cessation with the Third Noble Truth, See DN22 for an example, and to check.
Yes, that's exactly how I understand it. I've seen it discussed in numerous places, such as:
http://www.buddhanet.net/funbud12.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
On the basis of the Buddha’s own statements, we can see a very close relationship between the Four Noble Truths and dependent origination. What is it that the Four Noble Truths and dependent origination have in common? The principle that both have in common is the principle of causality - the law of cause and effect, of action and consequence. In one of our earlier lectures we have mentioned that the Four Noble Truths are divided into two groups. The first two - suffering and the causes of suffering, and the last two - the end of suffering and the path to the end of suffering. In both of these groups, it is the law of cause and effect that governs the relationship between the two. In other words, suffering is the effect of the cause of suffering; and similarly, the end of suffering is the effect of the path to the end of suffering. Here too in regard to dependent origination, the fundamental principle at work is that of cause and effect. In dependent origination, we have a more detailed description of what actually takes place in the causal process.
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Mike
vinasp
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by vinasp »

Hi Mike,

There is one passage which explains the opening of the dhamma eye by
reference to the breaking of the first three fetters. This, of course,
includes sakkaya-ditthi, the first fetter. Which Bhikkhu Bodhi translates
as "identity-view".

I do not have the reference at hand, and would have to consult my notes.

Regards, Vincent.
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mikenz66
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Vincent,

There are many places where stream entry is defined in terms of destroying self-view, so I wouldn't be surprised by that. However, here I was trying to examine the meaning of the "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma" passages I quoted in the OP.

:anjali:
Mike
vinasp
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by vinasp »

Hi Mike,

Dhamma also means nature. Some have translated that line as:

"Whatever is of a nature to arise, all that is of a nature to cease."

Do you want to compare different translations?

Regards, Vincent.
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mikenz66
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by mikenz66 »

vinasp wrote: Dhamma also means nature. Some have translated that line as:
"Whatever is of a nature to arise, all that is of a nature to cease."
Do you want to compare different translations?
Sure. I gave a number of translations in the OP. "Nature to arise..." appears in this translation:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Though I thought that this use of the word nature in that case implied this meaning:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nature" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
  • 10. character, kind, or sort: two books of the same nature.
rather than:
  • 5. the universe, with all its phenomena.
Though the latter is, of course, one way in which dhamma can be used.

:anjali:
Mike
vinasp
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by vinasp »

Hi Mike,

I think that the difference between my interpretation and most peoples
understanding of these things, is the matter of the time scale.

For me, what the stream-enterer has understood, is that a great mass of
things which have arisen, over say the last twenty years, are capable
of ceasing. These are all the things which he is clinging to.

Now, these things cannot be experienced through the five senses, it is
even hard to see them in the mind.

If enlightenment is the cessation of all clinging, then the starting
point must be the understanding of how this is possible.

Understanding how it can be done, is seeing the path. Starting to do
it, is entering the path. Actually completing the task is completing
the path.

For me, it really has nothing to do with experience through the five
senses. And even where the mind is considered, it is not about things
arising and ceasing over some short time scale. The hundreds of things
which one is clinging to do not arise and cease all the time. They have
arisen, over twenty years. They can cease.

Regards, Vincent.
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mikenz66
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Vincent,

It's refreshing to have someone express a non-instantaneous view of arising and cessation. Personally, I think it's helpful to look at multiple time scales.

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Mike
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
mikenz66 wrote:Personally, I think it's helpful to look at multiple time scales.
Time-scales are only deemed to be of relevance whilst there is the assumption that a particular dhamma exists over time.

If you remove that erroneous assumption, you remove the notion of time. Hence Einstein taught the relativity of time. Hence the Dhamma is time-less, because it disbands the reference points of that relativity.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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mikenz66
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Retro,

I don't believe Einstein has any relevance to this discussion. For one thing, relativistic transformations make no difference to continuity.
retrofuturist wrote: Time-scales are only deemed to be of relevance whilst there is the assumption that a particular dhamma exists over time.

If you remove that erroneous assumption, you remove the notion of time.
Yes, I'm aware that's the erroneous from the point of view of some interpretations...
Anyway, I'll leave it to Vincent to defend his "20 year time scale".

:anjali:
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:Anyway, I'll leave it to Vincent to defend his "20 year time scale".
No need for him to "defend" it. If there's some referrent/dhamma by which "20 years" (i.e. that which exists for 20 years) makes sense to him, then it may be applicable for him. I think you will find though that the "20 year time scale" is predicated on self-view.
mikenz66 wrote:Yes, I'm aware that's the erroneous from the point of view of some interpretations...
Even in Classical Theravada, dhammas only exist for an infinitesimal duration... not 20 years.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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mikenz66
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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Even in Classical Theravada, dhammas only exist for an infinitesimal duration... not 20 years.
Sure. But it is possible to argue in various ways from the suttas.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.
So that talks of "mind" changing rapidly, but not "body composed of the four great elements".

On the other hand, the interpretation I posted in the OP is that a stream-enterer sees all formations arising and ceasing quickly...

:anjali:
Mike
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