The Lokayata Discourses

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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mikenz66
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Vincent,

Yes, a very popular interpretation is that Nibbana involves the "end of the world (of formations)", i.e. Nibbana involves the stopping of formations.
'This is peaceful, this is sublime, namely, the stilling of all conditioned things, the giving up of all substratum of becoming, the extinction of craving, detachment, Nibbana.'
[http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .piya.html and numerous other places.]

There is then some disagreement whether this ceasing of formations ("conditioned things" in that quote) is describing a temporary or permanent "state" (though even the word "state" is problematical in this context).

:anjali:
Mike
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mikenz66
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by mikenz66 »

This issue of what "happens" at Nibbana has been discussed before.
E.g.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5339" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=7281" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike
vinasp
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by vinasp »

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the link to those two threads, I had not noticed them. They are
both very interesting, but it will take me a while to read through them.

The question about nibbana is a tricky one. The Buddha speaks of two kinds
of liberation - temporary and delectable, and perpetual and unshakeable.
See MN 122.4 and MN 29.6-7

Regards, Vincent.
chownah
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by chownah »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Vincent,

Yes, a very popular interpretation is that Nibbana involves the "end of the world (of formations)", i.e. Nibbana involves the stopping of formations.
'This is peaceful, this is sublime, namely, the stilling of all conditioned things, the giving up of all substratum of becoming, the extinction of craving, detachment, Nibbana.'
[http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .piya.html and numerous other places.]

There is then some disagreement whether this ceasing of formations ("conditioned things" in that quote) is describing a temporary or permanent "state" (though even the word "state" is problematical in this context).

:anjali:
Mike
I'd also like to point out that there is some disagreement as to whether formations "cease" or if they are "stilled". "Cease" sort of implies that there would be no formations at all (hard for a monk to walk without some kind of formations I guess) while "still" sort of implies that there are formations but they are not clung to (a monk could walk but wouldn't be concerned if the destination was reached or not)......I guess.....
chownah
vinasp
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

Mike says that one interpretation is that, "nibbana involves the end of
the world (of formations)."

I think that I would agree with this, although the phrase "world of
formations", is not found in the Sutta Pitaka. [ correct me if I am wrong.]

However, in SN 12.49 "the world" is substituted for suffering in Dependent
Origination, (all twelve links).

I will quote the ending of this sutta. Bhikkhu Bodhi, Connected
Discourses, page 585 - 6:

"Bhikkhus, when a noble disciple thus understands as they really are
the origin and the passing away of the world, he is then called a
noble disciple who is accomplished in view, accomplished in vision,
who has arrived at this true Dhamma, who sees this true Dhamma, who
possesses a trainee's knowledge, a trainee's true knowledge, who has
entered the stream of the Dhamma, a noble one with penetrative wisdom,
one who stands squarely before the door to the Deathless."

My interpretation: All twelve links are the "world", when a noble
disciple understands how this "world" originates and passes away,
he has attained right view and has entered the stream. At this stage
it is just the understanding of how this can happen, the "world" has
not yet ceased.

On the question of formations, I think every link should be understood
as a formation (although this is not strictly correct).

Formations are mostly "old volition" or past volition which has become
an unconscious habit.

Regards, Vincent.
vinasp
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

One more very interesting passage from MN 48.

10. "Again, a noble disciple considers thus: 'Is there any other
recluse or brahmin outside possessed of a view such as I possess?"

"He understands thus: 'There is no other recluse or brahmin outside
possessed of a view such as I possess.' This is the third knowledge
attained by him that is noble, supramundane, not shared by ordinary
people."

The noble disciple has attained knowledge not shared by ordinary people.
He is thus an "insider" when compared to those who are "outsiders".
One becomes such an insider by understanding the four truths.

Also, he has attained right view while the outsiders have not.

Regards, Vincent.
vinasp
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

To clarify my interpretation of this personal "world" which is said to
cease, I would stress the following points:

1. This "world" only arises once [although it may take a long time to
arise - even years.]

2. This "world" only ceases once [this can be sudden or gradual, and
is, more or less, the same thing as enlightenment.]

3. This "world" has no direct connection with the actual five senses, nor
are they included in it. So normal experience of the external world,
through the five senses, continues even after the cessation of this
personal "world".

4. This "world" is everything that we are clinging to, or the five
categories of clinging's objects. [ five clinging aggregates.]

Regards, Vincent.
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retrofuturist
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Vincent,

What happens to the world when you go to sleep?

:zzz:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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kirk5a
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by kirk5a »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Vincent,

What happens to the world when you go to sleep?

:zzz:

Metta,
Retro. :)
What happens to clinging when you go to sleep?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
chownah
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by chownah »

vinasp wrote: To clarify my interpretation of this personal "world" which is said to
cease,
If it is a "personal" world then there must be some person to which it belongs I guess.....who is that persons?....is it your "self"?
chownah
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retrofuturist
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
kirk5a wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Vincent,

What happens to the world when you go to sleep?

:zzz:

Metta,
Retro. :)
What happens to clinging when you go to sleep?
It presses the snooze button.

:lol:

In all seriousness though, I'm keen to see what Vincent has to say about it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
vinasp
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

The path that leads to the cessation of suffering is the same path as
the one which leads to the cessation of the world.

This is, of course, the noble eightfold path.

The first noble truth ends with: "... in short, the five clinging
aggregates are suffering."

And here is the definition of the first clinging aggregate -form:

"Whatever kind of form there is, whether past, future, or present,
internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far
or near, that is tainted, that can be clung to: this is called
the form aggregate subject to clinging." [ SN 22.48 ]

This definition includes all the form in the world or cosmos.

Regards, Vincent.
vinasp
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

In this Sutta the Buddha confirms that, for him, the "world" has ceased.

"Bhikkhus, the world has been fully understood by the Tathagata; the Tathagata is released from the world. The origin of the world has been fully understood by the Tathagata; the origin of the world has been abandoned by the Tathagata. The cessation of the world has been fully understood by the Tathagata; the cessation of the world has been realized by the Tathagata. The course leading to the cessation of the world has been fully understood by the Tathagata; the course leading to the cessation of the world has been developed by the Tathagata."

The Itivuttaka, translated by John D.Ireland, #112 The World, page 89.

Regards, Vincent.
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mikenz66
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by mikenz66 »

Complete Sutta here:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-112" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike
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