The Lokayata Discourses

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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acinteyyo
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by acinteyyo »

Hi Vincent,

although I agree to most of what you posted here, I need to comment on this.

I think the view "there is no self" is not appropriate to abandon any view of self because it still circles around a view of self and easily entangles one in a thicket of views bound to the extremes of existence and non-existence. One oversimplifies the issue by adopting that view and establishes a hindrance in understanding DO for oneself. It is a view which has to be abandoned too if you ask me. If there really isn't something, like for example a "jweponguopapoydtru", which apart from the letters I randomly put together doesn't have any significance at all, we really don't need to keep ourselves busy with it.

What must be known and seen as they are is the five aggregates — their nature, their arising, and their passing away. Dependen Origination is what describes it, avoiding the extremes of existence and non-existence. The view "there is a self" and the view "there is no self" become obvious as being delusion, their illusoriness become clear by understanding DO. It is not by removing one view through another by which one gains insight, enters the path and becomes enlightened, it is by seeing things as they are!
vinasp wrote:My opinion is that right view is the view - "there is no self", which
is used to remove the view of self.

If anyone thinks that the view "there is no self" is a wrong view,
and should be given up, then they will never enter the noble
eightfold path, and never become enlightened.
May opinion is that it is good that this is just your opinion and not what the Buddha taught when you ask me.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
vinasp
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by vinasp »

Hi acinteyyo,

Perhaps I should have made it clear that I regard right view as
"knowing and seeing things as they really are." It is,therefore,
quite a different thing from wrong views - which are delusions
and obsessions.

Your post is interesting and I would like to explore some of the
things which you say. This short reply is just to make sure that
we are both understanding views in the same way.

Regards, Vincent.
vinasp
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by vinasp »

Hi acinteyyo,

From your post:

"I think the view "there is no self" is not appropriate to abandon any view of self because it still circles around a view of self and easily entangles one in a thicket of views bound to the extremes of existence and non-existence. One oversimplifies the issue by adopting that view and establishes a hindrance in understanding DO for oneself. It is a view which has to be abandoned too if you ask me."

Yes, I agree. Thanks for pointing this out. I can see from what you say here,
that I should made it clear what I meant by right view.

Right view is "knowing and seeing things as they really are", so in relation
to the apparent self, it would be knowing and seeing that there is no self
in reality, and that the apparent self is a deep-rooted delusion.

When this truth which is seen is put into words, it is - "there is no self."
Now, a view (ditthi) is just "a way of seeing" it is not right or wrong
in itself. Those who are deluded have a wrong way of seeing, while those
who are free of delusions have a right way of seeing. So view (ditthi) is
used in two very different ways.

This means that the view "there is no self" could also be a wrong view.
As you say, if someone "adopted" such a view, it would be of no help,
and might be a hindrance. It seems that there is no way to know, when
such a view is stated, whether it is right view or wrong view.

I will try to write more clearly in future!

More to follow, regards, Vincent.
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acinteyyo
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by acinteyyo »

Thanks for clarifying, Vincent.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
vinasp
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

An interesting description of the acquisition of right view is given
in MN 48 - not yet available on the "access to insight" website.

Here are a few selected passages - Bhikkhu Bodhi, Middle Length
Discourses, pages 421 - 423.

8."And how does this view that is noble and emancipating lead
the one who practices in accordance with it to the complete
destruction of suffering?"
"Here a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or ... considers thus:
"Is there any obsession unabandoned in myself that might
so obsess my mind that I cannot know or see things as they
actually are?"
........
"He understands thus;"There is no obsession unabandoned in
myself that might so obsess my mind that I cannot know
and see things as they actually are. My mind is well
disposed for awakening to the truths." This is the first
knowledge attained by him that is noble, supramundane, not
shared by ordinary people.

9. "Again, a noble disciple considers thus: "When I pursue,
develop, and cultivate this view, do I obtain internal
serenity, do I personally obtain stillness? (yes)

[ note the change from "bhikkhu" to "noble disciple". This sutta
goes on to describe seven of these forms of "supramundane knowledge"
and ends by saying that "... he possesses the fruit of stream-entry."
But when did he "enter the stream?"]

Regards, Vincent.
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mikenz66
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Vincent,

There is a (rather older) translation here:
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ta-e1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike
vinasp
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by vinasp »

Hi mike,

Thanks mike, that may be of use to those who don't have their own
copy of the Middle Length Discourses.

Regards, Vincent.
vinasp
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

More on MN 48.

When the "bhikkhu" arrives at the point where his mind is:
"... well disposed for awakening to the truths", what happens next?

Awakening to the truths, of course. These are the four noble truths.
The Sutta is not explicit here, it does not say that the monk awakens
to the truths. Instead it shows it by referring to him as a "noble
disciple."

SN 56.17 explains that ignorance is not knowing the four truths.

"Bhikkhus, not knowing suffering, not knowing the origin of
suffering, not knowing the cessation of suffering, not knowing
the way leading to the cessation of suffering: this is called
ignorance ..."

And SN 56.18 says that "true knowledge" is knowledge of these four truths.

These four truths can also be understood as Dependent Origination.

Regards, Vincent.
vinasp
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

I think that I have found the meaning of the phrase: "Without veering
towards either of these extremes the Tathagata teaches Dhamma by the middle."

It is, indeed, a rejection of the extremes of "existence" and "non-existence"
but only if existence is understood as real existence, and is applied to
"self" and (personal) "world".

What the Buddha is saying is that "self" and "world" are mind-fabricated.
Although they are apparent they are not real. What the mind has constructed
it can de-construct. These apparent things can vanish or disappear. So they
cannot be said to be the existence of something real, when they are apparent.
Nor can they be said to be the non-existence of something real when they have
vanished.

So, between the extremes of "real existence" on the one hand, and "non-
existence of something real" on the other, there is a middle where the
things which are mind-made are either "apparent" or "vanish".

Right view is exactly this view in relation to "self" and personal "world".
It sees them as mind-fabricated, as things which can vanish, and as things
which do not correspond to reality.

Dependent Origination represents this correct way of understanding "self"
and personal "world", showing how they originate and how they cease.

Regards, Vincent.
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mikenz66
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Vincent. You now seem to be agreeing with the quotes I referenced above:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 92#p171285" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
is that the case?

:anjali:
Mike
vinasp
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

Here is the quotation from Mulamadhyamakakarika by Nagarjuna.

15:10

अस्तीति शाश्वतग्राहो नास्तीत्युच्चेददर्शनं
astīti śāśvatagrāho nāstītyuccedadarśanaṁ

To say "it is" is to grasp for permanence. To say "it is not" is to adopt the view of nihilism.

तस्माद् अस्तित्वनास्तित्वे नाश्रीयेत विचक्षणः।
tasmād astitvanāstitve nāśrīyeta vicakṣaṇaḥ

Therefore a wise person does not say "exists" or "does not exist".[5]

I can't comment on this yet. I need to understand the context.

Regards, Vincent.
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mikenz66
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by mikenz66 »

See the comments on that text by Ajahn Amaro here:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 69#p169966" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike
vinasp
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by vinasp »

Hi mike,

Am I agreeing with those quotes? No.

This is the one we need to focus on, I think:

"The evidence for ‘being’ (the arising of things) is seen and seen through, the
evidence for ‘non-being’ (the cessation of things) is seen and seen through; both are thus let go of through perfect understanding, and the heart experiences release."

My comment: [ I can make no sense of this.]

It is hard to tell from such a short quote. I would need to read the whole
book to be sure. But, can you shed any light on what this passage means?

Regards, Vincent.
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mikenz66
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by mikenz66 »

I take them as one seeing the arising and passing away of phenomena experientially. One discerns contact-feeling-craving-etc happening moment by moment... And infers that it is also happening on a cosmic scale...

:anjali:
Mike
vinasp
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Re: The Lokayata Discourses

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

"That end of the world wherein one is not born, does not grow old or die, pass away or reappear, that I declare, is impossible to be known, seen or reached by travelling. But, friend, I do not declare that one can make an end of suffering without reaching the end of the world. Friend, I do proclaim that in this very fathom-long body, with its perceptions and consciousness, is the world, the world's arising, the world's cessation and the path leading to the world's cessation." A.N. II.48 Rohitassa (pali text) translated by Nanananda in Concept and Reality page 83.

AN 4.45 Link:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Regards, Vincent.
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