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SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta - Dhamma Wheel

SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

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SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:42 pm

SN 12.15 PTS: S ii 16 CDB i 544
Kaccaayanagotto Sutta: Kaccaayana
translated from the Pali by Maurice O'Connell Walshe


The Buddha explains to Ven. Kaccayana Gotta how dependent co-arising applies in the development of right view.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html

[At Saavatthii the Ven. Kaccaayana asked the Blessed One:] "'Right view,[1] right view,' it is said, Lord. In what way, Lord, is there right view?'

"The world in general, Kaccaayana, inclines to two views, to existence[2] or to non-existence.[3] But for him who, with the highest wisdom, sees the uprising of the world as it really is,[4] 'non-existence of the world' does not apply, and for him who, with highest wisdom, sees the passing away of the world as it really is, 'existence of the world' does not apply.

"The world in general, Kaccaayana, grasps after systems and is imprisoned by dogmas.[5] But he[6] does not go along with that system-grasping, that mental obstinacy and dogmatic bias, does not grasp at it, does not affirm: 'This is my self.'[7] He knows without doubt or hesitation that whatever arises is merely dukkha[8] that what passes away is merely dukkha and such knowledge is his own, not depending on anyone else. This, Kaccaayana, is what constitutes right view.

"'Everything exists,'[9] this is one extreme [view]; 'nothing exists,' this is the other extreme. Avoiding both extremes the Tathaagata[10] teaches a doctrine of the middle: Conditioned by ignorance are the formations... [as SN 12.10]... So there comes about the arising of this entire mass of suffering. But from the complete fading away and cessation of ignorance there comes the cessation of the formations, from the cessation of the formations comes the cessation of consciousness... So there comes about the complete cessation of this entire mass of suffering."


Notes

1. Samma Di.t.thi: the first step of the Noble Eightfold Path, lit. "Right Seeing." It is also rendered "Right Understanding," but the connotations of this are too exclusively intellectual. The rendering "Right Views" (plural) is to be rejected, since it is not a matter of holding "views" (opinions) but of "seeing things as they really are."

2. Atthitaa: "is-ness." The theory of "Eternalism" (sassatavaada).

3. Natthitaa: "is-not-ness." The theory of "Annihilationism" (ucchedavaada). All forms of materialism come under this heading. See the discussion in Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of DN 1, The All-Embracing Net of Views (BPS 1978), pp. 30-33.

4. Yathaabhuuta.m: cf n. 1.

5. Or, as we might say today, "ideologies" or "isms."

6. I take this to mean the man who sees "with the highest wisdom" mentioned above. Mrs Rhys Davids seems to have gone slightly astray here.

7. [Attaa me ti:] Cf. SN 3.8, n. 1. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html
Feer's edition of SN reads here attaa na me ti "this is not myself," which would also make sense but is contradicted, not only in SA [Commentary], but also when the story is repeated at SN 22.90. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

8. The usual translation "suffering," always a makeshift, is inappropriate here.
Dukkha in Buddhist usage refers to the inherent unsatisfactoriness and general insecurity of all conditioned existence.

9. Sabbam atthi. From the Sanskrit form of this expression, sarvam asti (though used in a slightly different sense) the Sarvaastivaadin school got their name. They held that dharmas existed in "three times," past, present and future. It was mainly to this early school that the label "Hiinayaana" ("Lesser Career or Vehicle") was applied and later illegitimately applied to the Theravaada (see SN 12.22, n. 1 ).

10. Lit. probably either "Thus come" tathaa-aagata or "Thus gone (beyond)" (tathaa-gata): the Buddha's usual way of referring to himself. For other meanings cf. Bhikkhu Bodhi, The All-Embracing Net of Views (BPS 1978), pp. 50-53, 331-344.
[Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of DN1 is here: , but the (very long!) discussion of the meaning of Thatagata is not reproduced there.]

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Re: SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:43 pm

SN 12.15 PTS: S ii 16 CDB i 544
Kaccayanagotta Sutta: To Kaccayana Gotta (on Right View)
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?"

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."

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Re: SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:54 pm

Translation by Ajahn Pasanno & Ajahn Amaro, The Island, Page 106.
http://www.abhayagiri.org/main/book/1788/

At Sævatthi. Then the Venerable Kaccænagotta
approached the Blessed One, paid respects to him, sat down to
one side, and said to him, “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘Right View,
Right View.’ In what way, venerable sir, is there Right View?”
“This world, Kaccæyana, for the most part depends upon the
dualism of the notions of existence and non-existence. But for
one who sees the origin of the world as it really is with right
understanding, there is no notion of non-existence with regard to
the world. And for one who sees the cessation of the world as it
really is with right understanding, there is no notion of existence
with regard to the world.

“This world, Kaccæyana, is for the most part shackled by bias,
clinging, and insistence. But one such as this [with Right View],
instead of becoming engaged, instead of clinging – instead of
taking a stand about ‘my self’ through such a bias, clinging,
mental standpoint, adherance and underlying tendency – such a
one has no perplexity or doubt that what arises is only dukkha
arising, and what ceases is only dukkha ceasing. In this their
knowledge is independent of others. It is in this way, Kaccæyana,
that there is Right View.

“‘All exists,’ Kaccæyana, this is one extreme, ‘All does not exist,’
this is the other extreme. Without veering towards either of these
extremes the Tathægata teaches the Dhamma by the Middle Way:
With ignorance as condition, volitional formations come to be;
with volitional formations as condition, consciousness comes to
be... Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.
“But with the remainderless fading away, cessation and nonarising
of ignorance there comes the cessation of volitional
formations; with the cessation of volitional formations, when
there are no volitional formations, there is the cessation of
consciousness, consciousness does not come to be... Such is the
cessation of this whole mass of suffering.”

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Re: SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

Postby Sam Vara » Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:50 pm


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Re: SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:47 pm


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Re: SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:14 am


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Re: SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

Postby Sam Vara » Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:30 pm


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Re: SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:26 pm

Hi Sam,

What you raise is an important point. I think that the Buddha is talking about "the world" as in "the world of experience".
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

It's interesting to compare these various translations:

Walshe:"
"The world in general, Kaccaayana, inclines to two views, to existence[2] or to non-existence.[3]"
2. Atthitaa: "is-ness." The theory of "Eternalism" (sassatavaada).
3. Natthitaa: "is-not-ness." The theory of "Annihilationism" (ucchedavaada). All forms of materialism come under this heading. See the discussion in Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of DN 1, The All-Embracing Net of Views (BPS 1978), pp. 30-33.

Ven Thanissaro:
"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence.

Ajahn Pasanno & Ajahn Amaro:
“This world, Kaccæyana, for the most part depends upon the dualism of the notions of existence and non-existence.
Perhaps the finest expression of the causes of these two strands of wrong
view, eternalism and annihilationism, comes in a passage from the Itivuttaka. ...

Nagarjuna:
10. ‘Existence’ is the grasping at permanence; ‘non-existence’ is
the view of annihilation. Therefore, the wise do not dwell, in
existence or non-existence.

Ven Nanananda:
"This world, Kaccāyana, for the most part, bases its views on two things:
on existence and non-existence."
In his answer, the Buddha first points out that the worldlings
mostly base themselves on a duality, the two conflicting views
of existence and non-existence, or `is' and `is not'. They would
either hold on to the dogmatic view of eternalism, or would
cling to nihilism.

Bhikku Bodhi:
"The world, Kaccana, for the most part depends upon a duality - upon the notion of existence and the notion of non-existence."
[Commentary] Spk: "For the most part" means: for the great multitude, with the exception of the noble individuals. The notion of existence is eternalism; the notion of nonexistence is annihilationalism. Spk-pt: The notion of existence is eternalism because it maintains that the entire world (of personal experience) exists forever. The notion of nonexistence if annihilationism because is maintains that the entire world does not exist (forever) but is cut off.

Notice that these various ancient and modern commentators all talk the meaning to be about errors in the notion of existence and the "world of experience".

In my opinion the Sutta says nothing about whether or not "things (rocks, bones, whatever) exist". That's a separate philosophical question that is unimportant to liberation. It's about errors in perception regarding the existence of "my world", "me".

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:35 pm


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Re: SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

Postby Sam Vara » Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:55 pm


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Re: SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:24 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:07 am


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Re: SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:48 am

"But for one who sees the origin of the world as it really is, with correct wisdom, there is no notion of nonexistence in regard to the world. And for one who sees the cessation of the world as it really is with correct wisdom, there is no notion of existence in regard to the world."

Spk: The origin of the world: the production of the world of formations.
There is no notion of nonexistence in regard to the world: there does not occur in him the annihilationist view that might arise in regard to phenomena produced and made manifest in the world of formations, holding "The do not exist".
Spk-pt: The annihilationist view might arise in regard to the world of formations thus: "On accound of the annihilation an perishing of beings right where they are, there is no persisting being of phenomenon." It also includes the wrong view, having those formations as its object, which holds: "There are no beings that are reborn."
That view does not occur to him; for one seeing with right understanding the production and origination of the world of formations in dependence on such diverse conditions as kamma, ignorance, craving, etc., that annihilationist view does not occur, since one sees the uninterrupted production of formations.

Spk: The cessation of the world: the dissolution (bhanga) of formations.
There is no notion of existence in regard to the world: There does not occur in him the eternalist view which might arise in regard to phenomena produced and made manifest in the world of formations, holding "The exist".
Spk-pt: The eternalist view might arise in regard to the world of formations, taking it to exist at all times, owing to the apprehension of identity in the uninterrupted continuum occurring in a cause-effect relationship. But that view does not occur in him; because he sees the cessation of the successively arisen phenomnea and the arising of successively new phenonmena, the eternalist view does not occur.

Spk: Further, "the origin of the world" is direct-order conditionality; "the cessation of the world" reverse-order conditionality.
[Spk-pt: "Direct-order conditionality is the conditioning efficiency of the conditions in relation to their own effects; reverse order conditionality is the cessation of the effects through the cessation of their respective causes.]
For in seeing the dependency of the world, when one sees the non-termination of the conditionally arisen phenomena owing to the nontermination of their conditions, the annihilationist view, which might otherwise arise, does not occur. And in seeing the cessation of conditions, when one sees the cessation of the conditionally arisen phenomena owing to the cessation of their conditions, the eternalist view, which might otherwise arise, does not occur.

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Re: SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:50 am


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Re: SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:41 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:44 am

"This world, Kaccana, is for the most part shackled by engagement, clinging, and adherence."

BB: Spk explains that each of the three nouns --- engagement, clinging, and adherence --- occurs by way of craving and views (tanha, ditthi), for it is through these that one engages, clings to, and adheres to the phenomena of the three planes as "I" and "mine"




"But this one [with right view] does not become engaged and cling through that engagement and clinging, mental standpoint, adherence, underlying tendency; he does not take a stant about 'my self'."

BB: [Technical discussion of the difficult syntax...]. Spk says that craving and views are also called "mental standpoints" (adhitthana) because they are foundations for the (unwholesome) mind, and "adherences and underlying tendencies" (abhinivesanusaya) because they adhere to the mind and lie latent within it.




"He has no perplexity or doubt that what arises is only suffering arising, what ceases is only suffering ceasing. His knowledge about this is independent of others. It is in this way, Kaccana, that there is right view."

BB: Spk explainse dukkha here as "the mere five agghttp://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit ... tmlregates subject to clinging". Thsu what the noble disciple sees, when he reflects upon his personal existence, is not a self or a substantially existent person but a mere assemblage of conditioned phenomena arising and passing away through the conditioning process governed by dependent origination. IN this connection see the verses of the bhikkhuni Vajira:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... bl143.html
By just this much --- the abandonment of the idea of a being (satta-sanna) --- there is right seeing.

Aparappaccaya namam, "knowledge independent of others" is glossed by Spk as "personal direct knowledge without dependence on another". This is said because the noble disciple, from the point of stream-entry on, has seen the essential truth of the Dhamma, and thus is not dependent on anyone else, not even the Buddha, for his or her insight into the Dhamma. Until arahantship is attained, however, such a disciple might still approach the Buddha (or another enlightened teacher) for practical guidance in meditation.




"'All exists': Kaccana, this is one extreme. 'All does not exist'" this is the second extreme. Without veering towards either of these extremes the Thahagata teachers the Dhamma by the middle: 'With ignorance as condition, volitional formations...
Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.
But with the remainderless cessation of ignorance ...
Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering'"

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Re: SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:46 am

I'm off soon for a long weekend, so please continue to discuss this very interesting sutta, along with its ancient and modern commentaries, amongst yourselves.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:16 am


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Re: SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:56 am

Comments by Bhikkhu Bodhi from In the Buddha's Words.

Several suttas hold up dependent origination as a "teaching by the middle" (majjhena tahagato dhammam deseti). It is a "teaching by the middle" because it transcends two extremes that polarize philosophical reflection on the human condition. One extreme, the metaphysical thesis of eternalism (sassatavada), asserts that the core of human identity is an indestructible and eternal self, whether individual or universal. It also asserts that the world is created and maintained by a permanent entity, a God or some other metaphysical reality. The other extreme, annihilationism (ucchedavada), holds that at death the person is utterly annihilated. There is no spiritual dimension to human existence and thus no personal survival of any sort. For the Buddha, both extremes pose insuperable problems. Eternalism encourages an obstinate clinging to the five aggregates, which are really impermanent and devoid of substantial self; annihilationism threatens to undermine ethics and to make suffering the product of chance.

Dependent origination offers a radically different perspective that transcends the two extremes. It shows that individual existence is constituted by a current of conditioned phenomena devoid of metaphysical self yet continuing on from birth to birth as long as the causes that sustain it remain effective. Dependent origination thereby offers a cogent explanation of the problem of suffering that on the one hand avoids the philosophical dilemmas posed by the hypothesis of a permanent self, and on the other avoids the dangers of ethical anarchy to which annihilationism eventually leads. As long as ignorance and craving remain, the process of rebirth continues; kamma yields its pleasant and painful fruit, and the great mass of suffering accumulates. When ignorance and craving are destroyed, the inner mechanism of karmic causation is deactivated, and one reaches the end of suffering in samsara. Perhaps the most elegant exposition of dependent origination as the "middle teaching" is the famous Kaccanogotta sutta.

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Re: SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

Postby cooran » Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:08 am

Love Bhikkhu Bodhi's knowledge, understanding and communication skills!

with metta
Chris
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