Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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Goofaholix
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Goofaholix »

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:As I understand it the student is meant to submit completely to the technique.
Should not one do whatever practice wholeheartedly?
My point is that the rationalization given is outside of the scope of the technique.
So you are saying the technique is not to "to observe unpleasant, to observe pleasant, to observe neutral, and to let go of the obsessive compulsion to try and get rid of one and get more of the other"? I think you'd better pay more attention to the instructions.
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Mr Man
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

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Goofaholix wrote: So you are saying the technique is not to "to observe unpleasant, to observe pleasant, to observe neutral, and to let go of the obsessive compulsion to try and get rid of one and get more of the other"? I think you'd better pay more attention to the instructions.
Do you mean the Goenka technique?
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mikenz66
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by mikenz66 »

Goofaholix wrote: So you are saying the technique is not to "to observe unpleasant, to observe pleasant, to observe neutral, and to let go of the obsessive compulsion to try and get rid of one and get more of the other"?
That's certainly the message I heard on a Goenka retreat...

Juuuusssstttt Obbbbseeerrrrvveeeee..... :meditate:

:anjali:
Mike
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Goofaholix
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Goofaholix »

Mr Man wrote:
Goofaholix wrote: So you are saying the technique is not to "to observe unpleasant, to observe pleasant, to observe neutral, and to let go of the obsessive compulsion to try and get rid of one and get more of the other"? I think you'd better pay more attention to the instructions.
Do you mean the Goenka technique?
Indeed.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Mr Man
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

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Goofaholix wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
Goofaholix wrote: So you are saying the technique is not to "to observe unpleasant, to observe pleasant, to observe neutral, and to let go of the obsessive compulsion to try and get rid of one and get more of the other"? I think you'd better pay more attention to the instructions.
Do you mean the Goenka technique?
Indeed.
Well I have only done retreats with Mother Sayama / Saya U Chit Tin (from the U Ba Khin tradition) and it was some time ago but as I remember it the teaching was Anapana Sati and the sweeping technique. As I remember it there wasn't really much work with mental states going on. The observation was always very active rather than passive and the focus was very much towards body sensations.

Not sure if there was a hidden teaching for "advanced" students.

:)
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

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Didn't they say to regard the vedana with equanimity? That's what goofaholix and I are taking from it.

:anjali:
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

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Mr Man wrote:The observation was always very active rather than passive and the focus was very much towards body sensations.
Were some of those body sensations pleasant? some unpleasant? some neutral? and were you instructed to observe without reactivity?
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Mr Man
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

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Goofaholix wrote:Were some of those body sensations pleasant? some unpleasant? some neutral? and were you instructed to observe without reactivity?
If we go back to the beginning of the thread it was about a mental reaction to chanting. Now possibly the advice given about learning from aversion etc. is good but I'm not sure if it is in line with the technique or with the advice that would be given on a course. As I said in my previous post there didn't seem to be much work with mental states going on.
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Goofaholix
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Goofaholix »

Mr Man wrote:If we go back to the beginning of the thread it was about a mental reaction to chanting. Now possibly the advice given about learning from aversion etc. is good but I'm not sure if it is in line with the technique or with the advice that would be given on a course. As I said in my previous post there didn't seem to be much work with mental states going on.
You're right there isn't much work with mental states with this technique, but there is a lot of work with vedana or feeling.

In the scheme of things feeling is not mental states and it is not body, it's part way between.

When something you don't like happens do you feel an unpleasant sensations in the body? when something you like happens do you feel pleasant sensations in the body? This is the technique.

Now just apply it when you are listening to chanting but would rather be in concentrated bliss, it's not just a story about chanting and me not wanting it but there are unpleasant sensations in the body, this is what you need to observe and not react to.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Ben
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

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Goofaholix wrote:
Mr Man wrote:If we go back to the beginning of the thread it was about a mental reaction to chanting. Now possibly the advice given about learning from aversion etc. is good but I'm not sure if it is in line with the technique or with the advice that would be given on a course. As I said in my previous post there didn't seem to be much work with mental states going on.
You're right there isn't much work with mental states with this technique, but there is a lot of work with vedana or feeling.

In the scheme of things feeling is not mental states and it is not body, it's part way between.

When something you don't like happens do you feel an unpleasant sensations in the body? when something you like happens do you feel pleasant sensations in the body? This is the technique.

Now just apply it when you are listening to chanting but would rather be in concentrated bliss, it's not just a story about chanting and me not wanting it but there are unpleasant sensations in the body, this is what you need to observe and not react to.
Actually, vedanas do correspond very closely with mental states. By observing vedana one is indirectly observing mind. By not reacting with craving and aversion to vedana and observing with objective equanimity one is changing the way one relates to oneself and the world around us.
kind regards,

Ben
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Mr Man
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

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Ben wrote:
Actually, vedanas do correspond very closely with mental states. By observing vedana one is indirectly observing mind.

Ben

Not sure about that. By vedanas do you mean the physical sensations in the body? Yes no doubt mind states can manifest physically and we can sometimes free our selves from negative mental states by focusing on the physical (like focusing on the hands when in the dentist) but we can also work with mind states more directly (work with the cause rather than the symptom).
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by tiltbillings »

Ben wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:As I understand it the student is meant to submit completely to the technique.
Should not one do whatever practice wholeheartedly?
What Mr Man is referring to is during the preliminary formalities, SN Goenka asks students to "surrender to the current teacher". Surrender is explained that one merely does as instructed. Leaving aside any previous practices and devoting oneself exclusively to the practice of Vipassana as taught by SN Goenka for the period of ten days. But surrender is not the point of a ten-day course. The point of a ten-day course is to learn and develop some depth of experience in sila (five precepts), samadhi (samatha variant of anapana-sati) and panna (vipassana via vedananupassana).
kind regards,

Ben
Out of context it can be made to sound bad.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

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vidar
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by vidar »

Mr Man wrote:
Goofaholix wrote:Were some of those body sensations pleasant? some unpleasant? some neutral? and were you instructed to observe without reactivity?
If we go back to the beginning of the thread it was about a mental reaction to chanting. Now possibly the advice given about learning from aversion etc. is good but I'm not sure if it is in line with the technique or with the advice that would be given on a course. As I said in my previous post there didn't seem to be much work with mental states going on.

Observing vedana and metal states with equanimity is completely in line with the technique as S.N. Goenka says in the discourses of the 10 day introductory courses:

"The technique therefore is the exploration, by direct experience, of the real nature of the phenomenon that one calls "I, mine". There are two aspects of this phenomenon: physical and mental, body and mind. The meditator begins by observing the reality of the body. To experience this reality directly, one must feel the body, that is, must be aware of sensations throughout the body. Thus observation of body--kayanupassana--necessarily involves observation of sensations--vedananupassana. Similarly one cannot experience the reality of the mind apart from what arises in the mind. Thus, observation of mind--cittanupassana--necessarily involves observation of the mental contents--dhammanupassana.
(...)
One uses the gross, unpleasant sensations as tools with which to eradicate the old stock of sankhara of aversion; one uses the subtle, pleasant sensations as tools with which to eradicate the old stock of sankhara of craving. Thus by maintaining awareness and equanimity towards every experience, one purifies the mind of all the deep-lying complexes, and approaches closer and closer to the goal of nibbana, of liberation.
(...)
In every case, however, in every situation, equanimity is essential, based on an awareness of sensations. Sankhara arise from the point of physical sensation. By remaining equanimous towards sensation, you prevent new sankhara from arising, and you also eliminate the old ones. Thus by observing sensations equanimously, you gradually progress towards the final goal of liberation from suffering."

Now, regarding the "surrender to the technique" , Goenka is also very clear about it:

"Next you surrendered to the Buddha and your present teacher for the ten days of the course. This surrender was for the purpose of giving a fair trial to the technique. Only someone who has surrendered in this way can work putting forth full efforts. One who is full of doubts and scepticism cannot work properly. However, surrendering does not mean developing blind faith; that has nothing to do with Dhamma. If any doubt arose in the mind, you were encouraged to come to the teacher as often as necessary for clarification.

The surrender was also to the discipline and timetable of the course. These were designed, based on the experience of thousands of previous students, to enable you to work continuously so as to derive the greatest possible advantage from these ten days.

By surrendering you undertook to work exactly as you were asked. Whatever techniques you might have been practising previously you were asked to lay aside for the period of the course. You could obtain the benefit and judge the value o the technique only by practising it exclusively, in the proper way. Mixing techniques, on the other hand, could have led you into serious difficulties"

If somebody feel aversion towards Chanting the best thing to do is maintain equanimity ( which is part of the training too), or simply he/she can stay in the room or in the meditation cell.
All the world is on fire, All the world is burning, All the world is ablaze, All the world is quaking. That which does not quake or blaze, That to which worldlings do not resort, Where there is no place for Mara:That is where my mind delights. (SN 5.7)

By degrees, little by little,
from moment to moment,
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Mr Man
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

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vidar wrote: If somebody feel aversion towards Chanting the best thing to do is maintain equanimity
Do you mean just observe the aversion and work with that (focusing on the mind space and thought proliferation)? Or should one return to the object of meditation, be that anapana sati or focusing on physical sensations in the body?
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

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Mr Man wrote:
vidar wrote: If somebody feel aversion towards Chanting the best thing to do is maintain equanimity
Do you mean just observe the aversion and work with that (focusing on the mind space and thought proliferation)? Or should one return to the object of meditation, be that anapana sati or focusing on physical sensations in the body?
You should continue your meditation if aversion arises.

You are observing the aversion when you are observing the sensations in the body.
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