SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

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mikenz66
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Re: SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

Post by mikenz66 »

"This world, Kaccana, is for the most part shackled by engagement, clinging, and adherence."

BB: Spk explains that each of the three nouns --- engagement, clinging, and adherence --- occurs by way of craving and views (tanha, ditthi), for it is through these that one engages, clings to, and adheres to the phenomena of the three planes as "I" and "mine"




"But this one [with right view] does not become engaged and cling through that engagement and clinging, mental standpoint, adherence, underlying tendency; he does not take a stant about 'my self'."

BB: [Technical discussion of the difficult syntax...]. Spk says that craving and views are also called "mental standpoints" (adhitthana) because they are foundations for the (unwholesome) mind, and "adherences and underlying tendencies" (abhinivesanusaya) because they adhere to the mind and lie latent within it.




"He has no perplexity or doubt that what arises is only suffering arising, what ceases is only suffering ceasing. His knowledge about this is independent of others. It is in this way, Kaccana, that there is right view."

BB: Spk explainse dukkha here as "the mere five agghttp://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn0 ... tmlregates" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; subject to clinging". Thsu what the noble disciple sees, when he reflects upon his personal existence, is not a self or a substantially existent person but a mere assemblage of conditioned phenomena arising and passing away through the conditioning process governed by dependent origination. IN this connection see the verses of the bhikkhuni Vajira:
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http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... bl143.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
By just this much --- the abandonment of the idea of a being (satta-sanna) --- there is right seeing.

Aparappaccaya namam, "knowledge independent of others" is glossed by Spk as "personal direct knowledge without dependence on another". This is said because the noble disciple, from the point of stream-entry on, has seen the essential truth of the Dhamma, and thus is not dependent on anyone else, not even the Buddha, for his or her insight into the Dhamma. Until arahantship is attained, however, such a disciple might still approach the Buddha (or another enlightened teacher) for practical guidance in meditation.




"'All exists': Kaccana, this is one extreme. 'All does not exist'" this is the second extreme. Without veering towards either of these extremes the Thahagata teachers the Dhamma by the middle: 'With ignorance as condition, volitional formations...
Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.
But with the remainderless cessation of ignorance ...
Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering'"
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mikenz66
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Re: SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

Post by mikenz66 »

I'm off soon for a long weekend, so please continue to discuss this very interesting sutta, along with its ancient and modern commentaries, amongst yourselves.

:anjali:
Mike
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mikenz66
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Re: SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

Post by mikenz66 »

Interestingly, the book by Ajahns Amaro and Pasanno, The Island, mentioned above has this sutta twice. Above I quoted it from Ajahn Amaro's section (the first half). Here it is again in Ajahn Pasanno's section.


Although these passages portray the Middle Way as balancing two ends of a
continuum, there are other instances where the Buddha defines the Middle Way as a
precise approach that cuts through the continuum entirely. This is especially apparent
in passages where he discusses the Middle Way in terms, not of behavior or
motivation, but of Right View. The Buddha often stresses the radical importance of
Right View:
  • I do not envision any one other quality by which
    unarisen skillful qualities arise, and arisen skillful qualities
    go to growth and proliferation, like right view. When a
    person has right view, unarisen skillful qualities arise, and
    arisen skillful qualities go to growth and proliferation.
    ~ A 1.182
This is not a right view that is clung to as an orthodoxy. Instead, it is a
correct perception of truth that leads to correct practice producing the right results.
And, the practice is not clung to and upheld come what may. Instead, one must
continually align one’s views and practice so as to cut through the misperception
that all the options available to us can be expressed in an either/or. This helps
provide a perspective that is more intuitive and centered in the present moment.
  • At Savatthø. Then the Venerable Kaccanagotta
    approached the Blessed One, paid homage to him, sat down to
    one side, and said to him: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘right view,
    right view.’ In what way, venerable sir, is there right view?”
    “This world, Kaccana, for the most part depends upon a duality –
    upon the notion of existence and the notion of nonexistence. But
    for one who sees the origin of the world as it really is with
    correct wisdom, there is no notion of nonexistence in regard to
    the world. And for one who sees the cessation of the world as it
    really is with correct wisdom, there is no notion of existence in
    regard to the world.
    “This world, Kaccana, is for the most part shackled by engagement,
    clinging, and adherence. But this one [with right view]
    does not become engaged and cling to that engagement and
    clinging, mental standpoint, adherence, underlying tendency; he
    does not take a stand about ‘my self.’ He has no perplexity or
    doubt that what arises is only suffering arising, what ceases is
    only suffering ceasing. His knowledge about this is independent
    of others. It is in this way, Kaccana, that there is right view.
    “‘All exists’: Kaccana, this is one extreme. ‘All does not exist’: this
    is the second extreme. Without veering towards either of these
    extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma by the middle...”
    ~ S 12.15 (Bhikkhu Bodhi trans.)
  • Bhikkhus, held by two kinds of views, some devas and
    human beings hold back and some overreach; only those with
    vision see.
    And how, bhikkhus, do some hold back? Devas and humans enjoy
    being, delight in being, are satisfied with being. When Dhamma is
    taught to them for the cessation of being, their minds do not enter
    into it or acquire confidence in it or settle upon it or become
    resolved upon it. Thus, bhikkhus, do some hold back.
    How, bhikkhus, do some overreach? Now some are troubled,
    ashamed and disgusted by this very same being and they rejoice in
    (the idea of) non-being, asserting: “In as much as this self, good sirs,
    when the body perishes at death, is annihilated and
    destroyed and does not exist after death – this is peaceful, this is
    excellent, this is reality!” Thus, bhikkhus, do some overreach.
    How, bhikkhus, do those with vision see? Herein a bhikkhu sees
    what has come to be as having come to be. Having seen it thus, he
    practises the course for turning away, for dispassion, for the
    cessation of what has come to be. Thus, bhikkhus, do those with
    vision see.
    ~ Iti 49 (John D. Ireland trans.)
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-049" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The act of clinging to views of being or non-being forms the basis for our
misperception in life. When we hold to being, we foster a tendency to search for
ways of furthering the gratification, comfort, pleasure of that being. When we hold
to non-being, the swing goes in the direction of nihilism, fear, aversion to the
quality of being. This is to state the case in a somewhat oversimplified way, but as
we reflect and extrapolate from these two positions we can see how they can give
rise to a multitude of difficulties.

[SN 12.48 See this thread: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... =0#p170319]
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mikenz66
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Re: SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

Post by mikenz66 »

Comments by Bhikkhu Bodhi from In the Buddha's Words.

Several suttas hold up dependent origination as a "teaching by the middle" (majjhena tahagato dhammam deseti). It is a "teaching by the middle" because it transcends two extremes that polarize philosophical reflection on the human condition. One extreme, the metaphysical thesis of eternalism (sassatavada), asserts that the core of human identity is an indestructible and eternal self, whether individual or universal. It also asserts that the world is created and maintained by a permanent entity, a God or some other metaphysical reality. The other extreme, annihilationism (ucchedavada), holds that at death the person is utterly annihilated. There is no spiritual dimension to human existence and thus no personal survival of any sort. For the Buddha, both extremes pose insuperable problems. Eternalism encourages an obstinate clinging to the five aggregates, which are really impermanent and devoid of substantial self; annihilationism threatens to undermine ethics and to make suffering the product of chance.

Dependent origination offers a radically different perspective that transcends the two extremes. It shows that individual existence is constituted by a current of conditioned phenomena devoid of metaphysical self yet continuing on from birth to birth as long as the causes that sustain it remain effective. Dependent origination thereby offers a cogent explanation of the problem of suffering that on the one hand avoids the philosophical dilemmas posed by the hypothesis of a permanent self, and on the other avoids the dangers of ethical anarchy to which annihilationism eventually leads. As long as ignorance and craving remain, the process of rebirth continues; kamma yields its pleasant and painful fruit, and the great mass of suffering accumulates. When ignorance and craving are destroyed, the inner mechanism of karmic causation is deactivated, and one reaches the end of suffering in samsara. Perhaps the most elegant exposition of dependent origination as the "middle teaching" is the famous Kaccanogotta sutta.
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cooran
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Re: SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

Post by cooran »

Love Bhikkhu Bodhi's knowledge, understanding and communication skills!

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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vinasp
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Re: SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

This is just my interpretation.

For the "worldling" self and my-world exist and are real beyond
any doubt.

For the noble disciple, on the noble eightfold path, self and
my-world are understood as having come-to-be, by being fabricated
by the mind. They are not real. He is working towards their
cessation. So because he sees how this "world" has arisen, he
does not think - "it does not exist." And because he sees how
this "world" will cease, he does not think - "It exists."

For those who are enlightened this "world" has ceased.

Regards, Vincent.
vinasp
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Re: SN 12.15 Kaccaayanagotto Sutta

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

The text of SN 12.15 is repeated in SN 22.90 - Channa - where, again,
the context is about right view.

Channa complains that he does not "see the Dhamma". Ananda recites
SN 12.15 to him, and as a result Channa says " ... I have made the
breakthrough to the Dhamma."

In other words, he has become established in right view.

Channa's description of his problem does seem, to me, to show that he
has a difficulty in understanding the (apparent) present self.

One possibility is that Channa's problem results from regarding the
self as being real, with consequent anxiety about the loss of this
real self. The SN 12.15 teaching can be understood as showing that
the apparent self is mind-fabricated, and therefore, nothing real.

Regards, Vincent.
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