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Is there sutta basis for the modern bifurcation of jhanas? - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Is there sutta basis for the modern bifurcation of jhanas?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration

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tiltbillings
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Re: Is there sutta basis for the modern bifurcation of jhanas?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:26 pm


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robertk
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Re: Is there sutta basis for the modern bifurcation of jhanas?

Postby robertk » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:01 am

Concentration has various meanings. When it is kusala it can
be
the type that is associated with samatha or with vipassana.

QUOTE

Anguttara Nikaya IV.41
Samadhi Sutta
"Monks, these are the four developments of concentration.
Which
four? There is the development of concentration that, when
developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here &
now. There is the development of concentration that, when
developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge &
vision. There is the development of concentration that, when
developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There
is
the development of concentration that, when developed &
pursued,
leads to the ending of the effluents.

"And what is the development of concentration that, when
developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here &
now? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from
sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters &
remains in the first jhana:..... he enters & remains in the
fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither
pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration
that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in
the here & now.

"And what is the development of concentration that, when
developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There
is
the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise,
known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are
known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as
they
subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as
they
persist, known as they subside. This is the development of
concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to
mindfulness & alertness.
http://www.abhidhamma.org/an4-41.html

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mikenz66
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Re: Is there sutta basis for the modern bifurcation of jhanas?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:07 am


Brizzy
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Re: Is there sutta basis for the modern bifurcation of jhanas?

Postby Brizzy » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:16 am

Ignorance is an intentional act.


Nyana
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Re: Is there sutta basis for the modern bifurcation of jhanas?

Postby Nyana » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:28 am


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mikenz66
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Re: Is there sutta basis for the modern bifurcation of jhanas?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:45 pm


Sylvester
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Re: Is there sutta basis for the modern bifurcation of jhanas?

Postby Sylvester » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:59 am

Hi Mike

I believe the bifurcation to be more than apparent.

It's a point that's been canvassed before, but it bears repeating that many of the English readings of the so-called unity of investigation and absorption are based on the readers' using English grammar to construct the Pali. The translations are generally fine, but they do not make apparent the nuances that show up in the Pali.

Eg MN 111. What typically goes unnoticed is the fact that the text uses a standard construction to show temporal disjunction between the vavattheti verb (discriminates/ferrets etc) from the pajanati verb (knows/discerns). The former is expressed as a past participle (vavatthitā), while the pajanati is in the present tense (but correctly translated as the historical present). In this kind of formation, the grammars are clear - treat the action denoted by the past participle as having occurred prior to the verb in the present tense/aorist.

Eg DN 2. The same problem afflicts the reader confronted with the phrase "With his mind thus concentrated....monk directs and inclines it to...". The Pali has it in the locative absolute construction formed using a verb in locative past participle form (samāhite) while the intentional movement of the mind are in the present tense (abhinīharati abhininnāmeti ). Again, the grammar is clear - the verb in the locative past participle will have preceded the present tense verbs.

The problem it seems is not a case of Commentarial jhanas versus the Sutta Jhanas, but a purely linguistic one in the process of understanding a translation.

That's even assuming that some translations are correct. I mentioned elsewhere a gross translation problem for DN 9 from ATI, the result of which that sutta's admonition against thinking and intending within Jhanas get completely whittled away to Nothingness (quite literally).

I've suggested previously that AN 5.28 seems to furnish the likeliest candidate for the vipassana jhanas by way of its exposition on the samadhi using the "review sign" (paccavekkhaṇa nimitta), a samadhi that happily comes after the standard 4 Jhanas formula. It stands as the nexus between the 4 Jhanas and the super-knowledges described as the culmination of the Jhanas in the standard DN 2 model. In fact, the intersection between AN 5.28 and DN 2 seems to be that the samadhi of reviewing coincides with DN 2's knowledge and vision concerning rupa and vinnana, something not explicitly mentioned in AN 5.28.

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4597&hilit=Pancangika&start=280#p135520

This sutta may well have formed the basis for the Vsm's exposition on reviewing, post-Jhanas, although there's no real reason to suspect that this sutta is the sole basis for the bifurcation.

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Re: Is there sutta basis for the modern bifurcation of jhanas?

Postby Nyana » Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:26 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: Is there sutta basis for the modern bifurcation of jhanas?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:15 am


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Re: Is there sutta basis for the modern bifurcation of jhanas?

Postby Nyana » Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:48 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: Is there sutta basis for the modern bifurcation of jhanas?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:10 am



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