the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Ludwig
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Rebirth

Post by Ludwig »

Hello everyone,

Not sure if I should have put this under the "the great rebirth debate" thread, anyway. First let me locate my position: Due to not having any direct memory or personal experience/evidence of a past life ( I do have memory and other evidence of how dependent arising formed "me" in my childhood, youth etc), and following Gotama's directive not to believe others' views without testing them I am strongly inclined to the "one life-time" view of rebirth rather than the major alternative which involves, as far as I can make out, "something" or maybe "non-something" transmigrating from one physical body to a new one upon the disintergration of the earlier physical body. (let me make myself absolutly clear nere: I do not pretend to refute this view, I simply cannot "hook on to it" in any way currently due primarity to the above noted reasons).

To my question: I'm wondering how other's on this (very excellent) forum who adhere to the "one life-time" version of rebirth account for Gotama's clear statement that rebirth involves the disintegration of the physical body (there is a sutta that clearly states this). I am particularly interested in the views of supporters of Buddhadasa, who's view I tend to agree with (although I have not read all of what he has written). As someone who is trying to clarify the "one life-time" view of rebirth this sutta presents a difficulty. While difficult, this sutta is by no means fatal for me, as noted above I hold as a prime directive of Gotama that one should not believe anyone, including Gotama, I'm sure he would agree.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.
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Zom
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Re: Rebirth

Post by Zom »

Due to not having any direct memory or personal experience/evidence of a past life ( I do have memory and other evidence of how dependent arising formed "me" in my childhood, youth etc), and following Gotama's directive not to believe others' views without testing them I am strongly inclined to the "one life-time" view of rebirth rather than the major alternative which involves, as far as I can make out,
Please read this:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_09.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
santa100
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Re: Rebirth

Post by santa100 »

And also this wonderful essay from Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_06.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
daverupa
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Re: Rebirth

Post by daverupa »

I don't think this passage can be over-emphasized with respect to exploring 'rebirth' as a newcomer to the Dhamma:
[url=http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html]Sabbasava Sutta[/url] (MN 2) wrote:"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

...This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

..."He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing.
:heart:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
santa100
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Re: Rebirth

Post by santa100 »

And obviously the Sabbasava Sutta confirmed the Buddha's teaching of rebirth as He did in many other Suttas:

"...This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair."

(ref: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )
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contemplans
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Re: Rebirth

Post by contemplans »

Thanissaro says quite plainly that rebirth has no empirical proof. He says the belief is based on pragmatic proof. The whole Buddhist view of the four noble truths is based on rebirth in the conventional sense.
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ground
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Re: Rebirth

Post by ground »

contemplans wrote:Thanissaro says quite plainly that rebirth has no empirical proof.
Who would know if he didn't say this? :smile:
contemplans wrote:He says the belief is based on pragmatic proof.
Funny "pragmatic proof" ... I never came accross this before. Is it really so difficult to leave belief be just belief?
contemplans wrote:The whole Buddhist view of the four noble truths is based on rebirth in the conventional sense.
Not necessarily.

Kind regards
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Alex123
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Re: Rebirth

Post by Alex123 »

contemplans wrote:Thanissaro says quite plainly that rebirth has no empirical proof. He says the belief is based on pragmatic proof. The whole Buddhist view of the four noble truths is based on rebirth in the conventional sense.
Four Noble Truths can be seen in this life and applies even to this life. This is why I prefer Buddhism, for its teaching on 4NT.

Rebirth, makes more sense than various theistic ideas of God by different religions for which pragmatic argument would not work.
whynotme
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Re: Rebirth

Post by whynotme »

Alex123 wrote:
contemplans wrote:Thanissaro says quite plainly that rebirth has no empirical proof. He says the belief is based on pragmatic proof. The whole Buddhist view of the four noble truths is based on rebirth in the conventional sense.
Four Noble Truths can be seen in this life and applies even to this life. This is why I prefer Buddhism, for its teaching on 4NT.

Rebirth, makes more sense than various theistic ideas of God by different religions for which pragmatic argument would not work.
I agree and want to add that if you see 4 noble truths you will see rebirth as part of it without seeing past lives.
Please stop following me
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Alexei
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Re: Rebirth

Post by Alexei »

whynotme wrote:if you see 4 noble truths you will see rebirth as part of it without seeing past lives.
In what way?
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Dhammanando
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Re: Some thoughts about rebirth

Post by Dhammanando »

Penguin,
DuskMoonPenguin wrote:What exactly defines the human realm?
There are quite a few definitions of the human realm. My favourite is found in a Vinaya sub-commentary: that realm of beings for whom the brahmacariyā is a possibility.
Is it just based on the appearance of four-limbed bipedal intelligent primates,
In the Mahānidāna Sutta's teaching on the seven stations of consciousness humans are classed among those beings who are "variegated in body and variegated in perception." But nothing is stated about precisely how variegated human bodies can be. Nor about how much a being might differ from apes like you or me while still counting as a human.

"Four-limbed bipedal intelligent primates" won't really do as a definition. A primate is a mammal and a mammal is an animal that suckles its young. But in the Mahāsīhanāda Sutta (MN. 12) although conception in a womb is the typical way of generation for humans, there are said to be certain humans who are "spontaneously-generated" (opapātika). That is to say, they just spring up fully-grown and presumably would need no suckling. What spontaneously-generated humans might look like, and in what biological class, order and genus they might fit, is anyone's guess.

My own guess is that they probably look rather like ourselves but without belly-buttons.

Or if they do have belly-buttons they will be of the non-functional sort like the Brahmā gods' non-functional noses and tongues (materiality that looks to all purposes like a nose or a tongue, but is not able to serve as the physical basis of olfactory or gustatory consciousness).
or more so on our sapience and sentience, and the balance of both suffering and happiness in the realm.
The texts sometimes hint at something along these lines. For example, a common commentarial definition of humans is the pun, manaso ussannattā 'manussā' ti ("They are called 'humans' because of their superiority of mind" MA. ii. 37). But strictly speaking this is not a definition of humans but only a nirukti of the word "human".
would a species of intelligent reptilian hominids constitute a portion of the "human realm"?
I don't see why not, especially as we seem already to have an instantiation of this in the person of the current U.S. Secretary of State.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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DNS
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Re: Some thoughts about rebirth

Post by DNS »

Dhammanando wrote: I don't see why not, especially as we seem already to have an instantiation of this in the person of the current U.S. Secretary of State.
:rofl:

Hi Bhante,

Great to see you here again! Are you back for regular posting?
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Dhammanando
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Re: Some thoughts about rebirth

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi David,
David N. Snyder wrote:Hi Bhante,

Great to see you here again! Are you back for regular posting?
Thanks for the welcome. I'm afraid I won't be back for regular posting just yet, as I'm going back up the mountain in a few days. I came down down because a whole bunch of friends from different places all decided to visit me at the same time, and I couldn't have accomodated them in my usual abode.

All the best for the coming year!

Dhammanando
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Nibbida
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Nibbida »

Good to see you here Bhante, even if only for a bit.

Much Metta. :anjali:
danieLion
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Re: Some thoughts about rebirth

Post by danieLion »

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