Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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darvki
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by darvki »

The Buddha called counterfeit dhamma fools gold and there is nothing that concretely states that my view is counterfeit dhamma.

I'm not trying to say that your stance is wrong and that my stance is right. There isn't enough scriptural evidence that can satisfy proof for that, or for that matter satisfy that you are right and I am wrong. This is the point I'm trying to make. All you're doing is accusing me of being incorrect without any solid evidence. As such, I'd just like us to stop pretending that this exchange actually has the capacity to lead anywhere. This discussion board deserves actual debates that are reinforced with references rather than exchanges that simply involve repetitive statements of views.

My aplogies if any of this comes off as unwarrantedly accusatory. I'm just telling it as I see it.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by tiltbillings »

I was going to say something about this discussion, but this is worth repeating:
darvki wrote:I'm not trying to say that your stance is wrong and that my stance is right. There isn't enough scriptural evidence that can satisfy proof for that, or for that matter satisfy that you are right and I am wrong. This is the point I'm trying to make. All you're doing is accusing me of being incorrect without any solid evidence. As such, I'd just like us to stop pretending that this exchange actually has the capacity to lead anywhere. This discussion board deserves actual debates that are reinforced with references rather than exchanges that simply involve repetitive statements of views.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
rowyourboat
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi Darvki

Well if the source (the tipitaka) cannot prove it, and if we are of the opinion that all other commentaries have the tipitaka as the root what use are other references/sources in resolving this?

with metta

Matheesha
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darvki
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by darvki »

None. I don't think this discussion has the potential for any real resolution. That's my point.

I don't understand why you chose to debate views on absorptions. No harm done, obviously, but one can't refute an intepretation with another when the very existence of the different interpretations comes from a lack of utter explicitness in the source.
rowyourboat
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi darvki,

I think it is weakness of Buddhism that it is tolerant and 'anything goes' attitude is allowed to ferment, often at the cost of the teachings becoming something other than what was intended. Historically it has been shown that this is one of the leading causes of destruction of Buddhism in lands where it existed previously.

with metta

Matheesha
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Mudita
& Upekkha
darvki
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by darvki »

rowyourboat wrote:I think it is weakness of Buddhism that it is tolerant and 'anything goes' attitude is allowed to ferment, often at the cost of the teachings becoming something other than what was intended. Historically it has been shown that this is one of the leading causes of destruction of Buddhism in lands where it existed previously.

It is indeed an unfortunate dynamic that has emerged within Buddhism. I myself am not familiar with the historical context involving the dhamma's dying out in various regions, but I have witnessed it for sure on a smaller scale. However, I cannot agree that my views fall under an "anything goes" attitude.
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Moth
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Downplaying Jhana

Post by Moth »

Why do you think so many teachers downplay Jhana? I've so often been given the impression that Jhana is inessential. At the same time Jhana is so often recommend by the Buddha in the Suttas.
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cooran
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Re: Downplaying Jhana

Post by cooran »

Hello moth,

As this is the meditation (general) section, can you post some of the 'downplays' and some of the Suttas that you are referring to please?

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manas
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Re: Downplaying Jhana

Post by manas »

Moth wrote:Why do you think so many teachers downplay Jhana? I've so often been given the impression that Jhana is inessential. At the same time Jhana is so often recommend by the Buddha in the Suttas.
Hi Moth,

the Buddha does more than just 'recommend' jhana. The four jhanas constitute 'limb number eight' of the Noble Eightfold Path! We are supposed to develop sammasamadhi, just like all the other limbs of the Path. As for some teachers downplaying jhana, well none of mine do that, so I cannot comment on that issue.

- with metta.
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Re: Downplaying Jhana

Post by befriend »

i agree buddha taught jhana, why is it so uncommon nowadays?
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Downplaying Jhana

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Because these teachers' conception of jhana is something different from what the Buddha actualy thaught. They think it's an even more absorbed state where the senses are shut down and there is no possibility of doing vipassana while in these states. Unsurprisingly, they think these more absorbed states are relatively useless and that there is the danger of one geting lost in doing this type of "jhana" the rest of their lives without striving for liberation.

For a really good thread on the nature of jhana see (at least the first page of) this: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 761#p89675" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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Alex123
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Re: Downplaying Jhana

Post by Alex123 »

Moth wrote:Why do you think so many teachers downplay Jhana? I've so often been given the impression that Jhana is inessential. At the same time Jhana is so often recommend by the Buddha in the Suttas.
Jhāna is listed as 8th factor of N8P. There are 7 factors that needs to be accomplished prior to Jhāna as part of sammā-samādhi.

Furthermore:
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Downplaying Jhana

Post by Modus.Ponens »

That doesn't make much sense Alex. I would be very curious to see where is that stated in the suttas, but in another thread.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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tiltbillings
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Re: Downplaying Jhana

Post by tiltbillings »

It all depends upon what is meant by jhana.

This whole thread, not just the first pages are worth looking at:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 761#p89675" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, this thread does not need to be duplicated here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ben
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Re: Downplaying Jhana

Post by Ben »

tiltbillings wrote:Also, this thread does not need to be duplicated here.
I agree.
This thread will be locked. So please join the discussion in the linked thread above.
The two threads will be merged shortly.
kind regards,

Ben
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