the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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DarwidHalim
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Location: Neither Samsara nor Nirvana

Re: Some thoughts about rebirth

Post by DarwidHalim »

Without taking side to anyone, it is very common within buddhist community that:
1. Think Buddha as a God.
2. The life is created by God.
3. There is no past life.

We cannot avoid this. We may ask around, and these people are there. This is reality of life.

Only those who study buddhism can know that Buddha is not God, and the life is without beginning.

We have a moral responsibility to explain the correct Buddism at the speed of that person understanding. Soon or later, that person will understand if that person also have enough merit to understand. If that person cannot, at least in his imprint, he may understand it in the future.

In the beginning of learning Buddhism, the existance of God doesn't really affect the learning process of that person. The non-existance of God can only be proven logically when that person understand sunyata. Since, this sunyata is even unheard, it is better not to discuss the existance of God with that basis.

The existance of past life is also not necessary to be understood in the beginning of the learning process. Although when study the law of karma will have a bit problem, when the confident of law of karma improves, slowly but sure, that person will ask him/herself about the existance of past life.

Everything takes process. That is why we are here, and we will forever here to show the reality of life until the end of this samsara. This is the call of our metta.

:namaste:
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
chownah
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Re: Some thoughts about rebirth

Post by chownah »

[quote="DuskMoonPenguin"] is can Buddhism still have strong foundations for the rest of Buddha's teachings if rebirth, theoretically, did not exist?
/quote]
For this question the answer is yes. For me rebirth is only theoretical in that there is nothing in my life that would lead me to expect that there is such a thing as rebirth so when considering it I do so as a theoretic....maybe there is rebirth but I just haven't had the experience yet...so for now it is theoretic....and I see absolutely nothing about rebirth that makes it necessary...........in fact I often wonder how one can have a view of the Buddha's teachings that would make one even consider that rebirth is important.....for me it is absolutely a non-issue.......
chownah
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Skeptic
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Re: Some thoughts about rebirth

Post by Skeptic »

chownah wrote:in fact I often wonder how one can have a view of the Buddha's teachings that would make one even consider that rebirth is important.....for me it is absolutely a non-issue.......
Yes, when living in present moment, not thinking much about past and future, the question of afterlife becomes completely irrelevant.
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kirk5a
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Re: Some thoughts about rebirth

Post by kirk5a »

Skeptic wrote:
chownah wrote:in fact I often wonder how one can have a view of the Buddha's teachings that would make one even consider that rebirth is important.....for me it is absolutely a non-issue.......
Yes, when living in present moment, not thinking much about past and future, the question of afterlife becomes completely irrelevant.
Except "living in the present moment" has to include an understanding of causality.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Alex123
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Re: Some thoughts about rebirth

Post by Alex123 »

contemplans wrote: http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011/05 ... o-you.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
  • Locke holds that for some person existing after your death to count as the same person as you, it is sufficient that that person’s consciousness be continuous with yours in the sense of containing memories of having done the things you’ve done, manifesting your distinctive personality traits, and so forth.
I have an issue with this. Even in this life we don't always remember everything. In dreams I can even forget one of languages. Even in this life sometimes person is lustful, sometimes angry, sometimes have this characteristic and sometimes opposite type of behavior. Even in this life a person can drastically change behavior patterns and be a different person. Alex was totally different ten years ago. This doesn't mean that Alex now doesn't have to pay for mistakes of that Alex. What I believe in necessary to be carried over is the deluded first person perspective and feeling of "I AM" + underlying tendencies. In dreams, Alex can be totally different dream character, but what remains is the perspective "I AM" deluded feeling. The externals (feelings, thoughts, character traits, etc) change, but not this until Parinibbāna. Person is not a "self-in-itself" and external situation affects it as well, so if external situation is different, the behavior will be different.

With best wishes,

Alex
chownah
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Re: Some thoughts about rebirth

Post by chownah »

kirk5a wrote:
Skeptic wrote:
chownah wrote:in fact I often wonder how one can have a view of the Buddha's teachings that would make one even consider that rebirth is important.....for me it is absolutely a non-issue.......
Yes, when living in present moment, not thinking much about past and future, the question of afterlife becomes completely irrelevant.
Except "living in the present moment" has to include an understanding of causality.
The truth of what you are saying is not apparent to me....can you explain it a bit?...especially explain it in relation to rebirth?
chownah
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kirk5a
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Re: Some thoughts about rebirth

Post by kirk5a »

chownah wrote:
kirk5a wrote: Except "living in the present moment" has to include an understanding of causality.
The truth of what you are saying is not apparent to me....can you explain it a bit?...especially explain it in relation to rebirth?
chownah
What I meant was, "living in the present moment" - as part of following the Buddhist path - requires understanding and working with the underlying mechanism of rebirth. Contact -> Feeling -> Craving -> Clinging -> Becoming -> Birth -> Aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Dependent origination - the causality of suffering. So rebirth is actually vividly relevant to living in the present moment, in that sense.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
chownah
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Re: Some thoughts about rebirth

Post by chownah »

kirk5a wrote:
chownah wrote:
kirk5a wrote: Except "living in the present moment" has to include an understanding of causality.
The truth of what you are saying is not apparent to me....can you explain it a bit?...especially explain it in relation to rebirth?
chownah
What I meant was, "living in the present moment" - as part of following the Buddhist path - requires understanding and working with the underlying mechanism of rebirth. Contact -> Feeling -> Craving -> Clinging -> Becoming -> Birth -> Aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Dependent origination - the causality of suffering. So rebirth is actually vividly relevant to living in the present moment, in that sense.
I don't see "rebirth" in there anywhere......it is not in my view a foregone conclusion that "birth"equals "rebirth" here or anywhere else. I think I understand dependent origination fairly well and I do not rely on the concept of "rebirth" in that understanding......the one I have difficulty with is "becoming".....can you explain what "becoming" is?
chownah
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kirk5a
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Re: Some thoughts about rebirth

Post by kirk5a »

chownah wrote: I don't see "rebirth" in there anywhere......it is not in my view a foregone conclusion that "birth"equals "rebirth" here or anywhere else. I think I understand dependent origination fairly well and I do not rely on the concept of "rebirth" in that understanding......the one I have difficulty with is "becoming".....can you explain what "becoming" is?
chownah
The Buddha was not referring to a process that only happens once.

I'll just quote Ven. Thanissaro on "bhava" (becoming)
Notice that the Buddha, instead of giving a definition of becoming (bhava) in response to this question, simply notes that becoming occurs on three levels. Nowhere in the suttas does he define the term becoming, but a survey of how he uses the term in different contexts suggests that it means a sense of identity in a particular world of experience: your sense of what you are, focused on a particular desire, in your personal sense of the world as related to that desire. In other words, it is both a psychological and a cosmological concept. For more on this topic, see The Paradox of Becoming, Introduction and Chapter One.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .html#fn-1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Aloka
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Re: Some thoughts about rebirth

Post by Aloka »

Skeptic wrote:
chownah wrote:in fact I often wonder how one can have a view of the Buddha's teachings that would make one even consider that rebirth is important.....for me it is absolutely a non-issue.......
Yes, when living in present moment, not thinking much about past and future, the question of afterlife becomes completely irrelevant.


Absolutely ! Personally I remain neutral on the whole issue of rebirth, for me to do otherwise would be speculative and irrelevant to the here and now.
chownah
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Re: Some thoughts about rebirth

Post by chownah »

kirk5a wrote:The Buddha was not referring to a process that only happens once.
I think you are right that there is more than one birth....I just don't know about the thing called "rebirth".....it wasn't mentioned in the dependent origination schematic you posted and for me it doesn't seem necessary to interject "rebirth" into it at all.....if you feel a need to do that then that is ok with me but you have not said anything that persuades me to think that "rebirth" needs to enter in at all and I really doubt that something could be written that would persuade me in that way because I have read alot of people's attempts to persuade and none of them have impacted me at all.....I think I will have to have some experience of some sort which points to "rebirth" if I am to develop a view of its existence...until then I have no problem interpreting the Buddha's teachings without it and have full respect for those who iterpret the Buddha's teachings using it.
kirk5a wrote: I'll just quote Ven. Thanissaro on "bhava" (becoming)
Notice that the Buddha, instead of giving a definition of becoming (bhava) in response to this question, simply notes that becoming occurs on three levels. Nowhere in the suttas does he define the term becoming, but a survey of how he uses the term in different contexts suggests that it means a sense of identity in a particular world of experience: your sense of what you are, focused on a particular desire, in your personal sense of the world as related to that desire. In other words, it is both a psychological and a cosmological concept. For more on this topic, see The Paradox of Becoming, Introduction and Chapter One.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .html#fn-1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Seems to me that "becoming" is the real mystery here......since becoming is the condition that gives rise to "birth" it seems that understanding "becoming" would be crucial in understanding "birth"....but I don't know for sure because I don't have a good enough understanding of "becoming".....hard for me to see how someone can full heartedly interpret "birth" as meaning "rebirth" in dependent origination unless they have a really good grasp of what "becoming" is all about.....but I fully respect those who do think that "birth" means "rebirth" in dependent origination even without a complete understanding of "becoming" since I think the lesson to be learned in dependent origination is not really to just understand the particular words used in expressing it....my view is that dependent origination can be seen as a process and the words used to express it are just worldly approximations to give us a shove in the right direction.....if the words were precisely and exactly what constitutes dependent origination then it would be easy to explain to anyone and it would be grasped immediately by most people....but clearly that is not the case.....so I think that the words do not provide a precise and accurate constitution of dependent origination but just an approximate idea to give us a hint....I guess....but don't know for sure....
chownah
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kirk5a
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Re: Some thoughts about rebirth

Post by kirk5a »

chownah wrote:
kirk5a wrote:The Buddha was not referring to a process that only happens once.
I think you are right that there is more than one birth....I just don't know about the thing called "rebirth"
This:
Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in...
Rebirth. We could call it "reappear" instead, in order to use the word that is used in the translations. You can google "dissolution of the body, after death" on ATI to see the many contexts for that.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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reflection
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Re: Some thoughts about rebirth

Post by reflection »

DarwidHalim wrote:Christianity actually accepts the continuity of life, isn't it?

If Mr. A born in 1950 and die in 2010.

Life span of Mr A
Christianity: Starting 1950 until infinite time in the future, whether hell or heaven.
Age from earth perspective = 60 years
Age from overall perspective = unlimited.

Buddhism: Starting from infinite from the past until infinite in the future
Age from earth perspective = 60 years
Age from overall perspective = unlimited.

Infinite life span is not an issue. If it is an issue, the infinity life span of Christianity in the future is also an issue.
If life span is without end in the future, there is no reason why life span is also without end in the past.

Without a rocket science and without going to the logic reasoning, my human sense can already tell me:

If life span can spread unlimited to the future, why life span can't expend as well unlimited to the past.

Without beginning, without end.

Scientist talks about bing bang. My question is which big bag they are talking about since time has no beginning.
In Buddhism, rebirth isn't eternal. It has an end with nibanna. Also probably it ever had a beginning, although very long ago and even the Buddha couldn't see it.
chownah
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Re: Some thoughts about rebirth

Post by chownah »

kirk5a wrote:
chownah wrote:
kirk5a wrote:The Buddha was not referring to a process that only happens once.
I think you are right that there is more than one birth....I just don't know about the thing called "rebirth"
This:
Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in...
Rebirth. We could call it "reappear" instead, in order to use the word that is used in the translations. You can google "dissolution of the body, after death" on ATI to see the many contexts for that.
I have no idea what this "reappear" thing is all about......I certainly don't think that my "self" will reappear since my "self" as "I" know it is a completely fallacious concept....I guess.....
Do you think lhat if I read some stuff I will start believing in the existence of something? It really seems that you have a need to try to convince me of something....do you think that you have a need to convince me of something?
chownah
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kirk5a
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Re: Some thoughts about rebirth

Post by kirk5a »

chownah wrote: Do you think lhat if I read some stuff I will start believing in the existence of something? It really seems that you have a need to try to convince me of something....do you think that you have a need to convince me of something?
chownah
Nope. Elsewhere there was a question about what Pali word for rebirth, where it appears in suttas. I think that's the place, the quote I posted. I try not to engage in personal speculations.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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