the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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reflection
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Re: Bodhi, Brahm, Thanisarro & Rebirth

Post by reflection »

Jhana4 wrote:Bhikkhu Bodhi and Thanisarro Bhikku are both Americans. Ajahn Brahm is from the U.K.. All three men are exceptionally intelligent and are very, very, very well educated. Interestingly, despite the western upbringing, the intelligence and the education all 3 have a strong belief in rebirth.

I am legitimately curious as to why that is the case.
I wonder why you are so interested in their personal beliefs, but according to the suttas, stream-enterers have right view and therefore see rebirth as truth. Maybe these guys are at this level, I wouldn't be surprised. But at the very least there must be others who are.

I guess what I want to say is that it doesn't have to be a cultural influence or a silent wish for "something more".
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Alex123
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Re: Bodhi, Brahm, Thanisarro & Rebirth

Post by Alex123 »

reflection wrote: but according to the suttas, stream-enterers have right view and therefore see rebirth as truth.
Which suttas specifically say that all stream enterers see rebirth as truth?


Thanks,
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reflection
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by reflection »

25. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands birth, the origin of birth, the cessation of birth, and the way leading to the cessation of birth, in that way he is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma.

26. "And what is birth, what is the origin of birth, what is the cessation of birth, what is the way leading to the cessation of birth? The birth of beings into the various orders of beings, their coming to birth, precipitation [in a womb], generation, manifestation of the aggregates, obtaining the bases for contact — this is called birth. With the arising of being there is the arising of birth. With the cessation of being there is the cessation of birth. The way leading to the cessation of birth is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... 7.html#pt1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Monks, there are these six rewards in realizing the fruit of stream-entry. Which six? One is certain of the true Dhamma. One is not subject to falling back. There is no suffering over what has had a limit placed on it. [1] One is endowed with uncommon knowledge. [2] One rightly sees cause, along with causally-originated phenomena.

"These are the six rewards in realizing the fruit of stream-entry."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:anjali:
daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by daverupa »

reflection wrote:25. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands birth, the origin of birth, the cessation of birth, and the way leading to the cessation of birth, in that way he is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma...
9. Saying, "Good, friend," the bhikkhus delighted and rejoiced in the Venerable Sariputta's words. Then they asked him a further question: "But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma?" — "There might be, friends..."
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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reflection
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by reflection »

I'm not really sure what you mean with that quote. Anyway, it says "another way", not "another view". What the sutta says, is that if you have noble right view of one thing, you will have noble right view of all things (the "true dhamma"), but you can get there via different ways.

"When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma
This is something usually assigned to stream enterers, see also the second sutta I quoted. Ergo, all parts of the Sammaditthi Sutta are describing the view of a stream enterer.


That's why I conclude a stream enterer has to believe in rebirth. It would be impossible to have "perfect confidence in the Dhamma", but not be sure about rebirth/dependent origination.
daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by daverupa »

Then, unless one is a sotapanna, one's view of rebirth is likely to be flawed. I'll buy that.

:heart:

Kinda puts the kibosh on the whole thread...
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

daverupa wrote:Then, unless one is a sotapanna, one's view of rebirth is likely to be flawed. I'll buy that.
One's view about everything is going to be flawed.
Kinda puts the kibosh on the whole thread...
How about the whole forum?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
chownah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by chownah »

reflection wrote:
25. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands birth, the origin of birth, the cessation of birth, and the way leading to the cessation of birth, in that way he is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma.

26. "And what is birth, what is the origin of birth, what is the cessation of birth, what is the way leading to the cessation of birth? The birth of beings into the various orders of beings, their coming to birth, precipitation [in a womb], generation, manifestation of the aggregates, obtaining the bases for contact — this is called birth. With the arising of being there is the arising of birth. With the cessation of being there is the cessation of birth. The way leading to the cessation of birth is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... 7.html#pt1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Monks, there are these six rewards in realizing the fruit of stream-entry. Which six? One is certain of the true Dhamma. One is not subject to falling back. There is no suffering over what has had a limit placed on it. [1] One is endowed with uncommon knowledge. [2] One rightly sees cause, along with causally-originated phenomena.

"These are the six rewards in realizing the fruit of stream-entry."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:anjali:
I don't see the word "rebirth" anywhere here....
chownah
chownah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by chownah »

tiltbillings wrote:One's view about everything is going to be flawed.
Indeed you are correct. In fact I think it is safe to say that all views are inately flawed....there can be no such thing as an unflawed view....this is because they all arise dependent on ignorance as taken from the doctrine of dependent co-arising.....

We should not cling to any view because all views are flawed....I guess.....
chownah
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

chownah wrote:We should not cling to any view because all views are flawed.
Especially the view that we should not cling to views.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
chownah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by chownah »

tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:We should not cling to any view because all views are flawed.
Especially the view that we should not cling to views.
Insight swallows itself up.
chownah
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

chownah wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:We should not cling to any view because all views are flawed.
Especially the view that we should not cling to views.
Insight swallows itself up.
chownah
{{{burp}}}
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: OMG! I'm not so special!

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

daverupa wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote:Taken as a whole I think the suttas support the view that the goal is both liberation from dukkha ( Nibbana ) and liberation from samsara ( Pari-nibbana ), and that these are 2 sides of the same coin rather than contradictory objectives.

Spiny
SN 56.11 wrote:"Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress: Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.
:heart:
I did say the suttas "taken as a whole". :smile:

The last quote is interesting, it says "Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful". So life is stressful. Human existence is stressful.
Unless we are a Buddha.

Spiny
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

chownah wrote:
reflection wrote:
25. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands birth, the origin of birth, the cessation of birth, and the way leading to the cessation of birth, in that way he is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma.

26. "And what is birth, what is the origin of birth, what is the cessation of birth, what is the way leading to the cessation of birth? The birth of beings into the various orders of beings, their coming to birth, precipitation [in a womb], generation, manifestation of the aggregates, obtaining the bases for contact — this is called birth. With the arising of being there is the arising of birth. With the cessation of being there is the cessation of birth. The way leading to the cessation of birth is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... 7.html#pt1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:anjali:
I don't see the word "rebirth" anywhere here....
chownah
But "rebirth" is clearly implied.

As is clear from the quote above, birth arises in dependence on "being" which is defined in the same sutta as follows:
"There are these three kinds of being: sense-sphere being, fine-material being and immaterial being."

So being ( or "becoming" ) is here described as the continuing process of existence in the various realms.
So it's clear that in this context "birth" means the process of repeated births in the various realms, ie rebirth.

Spiny
chownah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by chownah »

But "rebirth" is clearly implied.
I guess so.....I'm wondering who did the terrible job of writing this sutta that something as important as rebirth would have to be implied.....why didn't they just say rebirth?.....why imply it?......can anyone come up with a reason why the writer would rely on an implication here and why they wouldn't just use the appropriate word?.....any reason at all?.....is the Pali word for "rebirth" really difficult to recite, remember, or transcribe?....I'm not really wanting to argue "rebirth" vs. not....I'm just wondering why the use of implication in a case where it seems at face value that no implication is necessary....
chownah
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