the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

And when 'awakened' from the hypnotic state, the person returns to their normal frame of reference and no longer thinks they are from Venus. This is the difference between hypnotically-induced past-life memories and those recalled by Arhants.

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Woman: Psychologist Implanted Horrific Memories

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

Jhana4 wrote:If it is told to go back to a life before this one, it will invent memories.
Or recall episodes from dreams. ;)

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Buckwheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Buckwheat »

Anybody here ever had a memory that was flat out wrong? And that's just within this one lifetime. (If you think the answer is no, then you should look a little closer.)
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
Jhana4
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Jhana4 »

Metta-4 wrote:And when 'awakened' from the hypnotic state, the person returns to their normal frame of reference and no longer thinks they are from Venus. This is the difference between hypnotically-induced past-life memories and those recalled by Arhants.

M4
According to the article I posted about 3 posts up, a young woman seeing a shrink for anorexia had false memories hypnotically programmed into hers, which she thought were her after coming out of it.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Jhana4 »

Almost every single year, at least one article comes out about crowds seeing a Ganesh statue in India drinking milk or Catholics seeing Mary ( or Jesus ) statues bleed, cry........or seeing their images in toast? Why don't Catholics see Ganesh images in their toast or why don't Hindus see Jesus statues bleeding.

That is how they were inculcated by growing up in the culture where they were born.

This is probably a factor with Buddhist monks and nuns from foreign lands as well. They probably spent years meditating before getting past life memories. That is years of reading Buddhist beliefs, being around Buddhists and thinking Buddhism.

When I was in highschool I was very much into yoga and read a lot of things by yogis. This was a few decades ago, so I can't recall names, but I remember reading about some great Hindu teacher from the past being on record as warning people about religious visions and instructing people to ignore them, as he realized the mind sees what it or other people train it to see.

Dr. Stevenson tried to turn that argument onto its head to explain why so many of his case studies came from Asian children and so few from the West.

I don't buy that. I grew up in the west. I can't recall anyone every discouraging a young child about rebirth/reincarnation.......or even mentioning it. There isn't a reason for western toddlers not to be recalling past lives as much as Asian toddlers.

Even if you put all of that aside and look at westerners who spontaneously have memories of other lives and were never exposed to the concepts of reincarnation in any way shape or form, you still have a problem.

All you have is the "fact" that a person has memories from another person who died in the past ( lets assume this is all verified by records ). That doesn't mean there is rebirth, let alone rebirth as the Asian religions describe it, let alone all of the other tenents of Asian religions. All you have are memories which may have come from another source, like a Jungian racial memory. That theory and probably others are less wild than Hindu reincarnation of Buddhist rebirth.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

Jhana4 wrote:....... That theory and probably others are less wild than Hindu reincarnation of Buddhist rebirth.
It is? Why?

M4
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Jhana4 »

Metta-4 wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:....... That theory and probably others are less wild than Hindu reincarnation of Buddhist rebirth.
It is? Why?

M4
because it makes fewer claims to be substantiated.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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ground
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by ground »

Off topic remark
Jhana4 wrote:... as he realized the mind sees what it or other people train it to see.
This theory may also be applied to explain some vipassana insights

:focus:
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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 »

TMingyur wrote:Off topic remark
Jhana4 wrote:... as he realized the mind sees what it or other people train it to see.
This theory may also be applied to explain some vipassana insights

:focus:
Interesting. Maybe this is why during near death experiences, an atheist meets Uncle George, a Christian seems Virgin Mary or Jesus, some Mahayana Buddhist sees Kwan Yin, and so on.
Gena1480
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Gena1480 »

rebirth and death are thought not only by the Buddha but his disciples
by Ven. Kamabhu

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

when a monk has died
his verbal fabrications having been there cease first
his body fabrications cease next
his mental fabrications cease next
his vital force ceases
his heat cease
his faculties are shut down or ceases

and in case a monk is reborn
the formula is used
not been there it arises,having been there it ceases
his faculties having been there, they cease
his faculties not having been there, they arise
his heat not having been there ,it arises
his vital force not having been there,it arises
his mental fabrications having not been there, they arise
his body fabrications having not been there, they arise
his verbal fabrications having not been there, they arise
chownah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by chownah »

Gena1480 wrote:rebirth and death are thought not only by the Buddha but his disciples
by Ven. Kamabhu

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

when a monk has died
his verbal fabrications having been there cease first
his body fabrications cease next
his mental fabrications cease next
his vital force ceases
his heat cease
his faculties are shut down or ceases

and in case a monk is reborn
the formula is used
not been there it arises,having been there it ceases
his faculties having been there, they cease
his faculties not having been there, they arise
his heat not having been there ,it arises
his vital force not having been there,it arises
his mental fabrications having not been there, they arise
his body fabrications having not been there, they arise
his verbal fabrications having not been there, they arise
Gena1480,
I think you have misread the Sutta.....I looked at it and could not find anything about rebirth. It talks about death and the cessation of perception & feeling unless I have missed something somewhere.
chownah
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ground
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by ground »

Alex123 wrote:
TMingyur wrote:Off topic remark
Jhana4 wrote:... as he realized the mind sees what it or other people train it to see.
This theory may also be applied to explain some vipassana insights

:focus:
Interesting. Maybe this is why during near death experiences, an atheist meets Uncle George, a Christian seems Virgin Mary or Jesus, some Mahayana Buddhist sees Kwan Yin, and so on.
BTW:
One may also apply this theory to the present life and all the experiences occuring therein, since after all the "training" mentioned above is nothing but accumulating karma.

Kind regards
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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

"I have seen the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness." --Allen Ginsberg, Howl. And this was before the Internet. :tongue:

M4
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: OMG! I'm not so special!

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

daverupa wrote:
chownah wrote:
BlueLotus wrote: But what if there is no rebirth? What if life ends after death? I am still really confused about this
I think that ending rebirth is the goal....isn't it?....for an arahant there is no rebirth...isn't that right? Does this frighten you?....just wondering....
chownah
Ending suffering is the goal. Saying that the goal is ending rebirth is to take one particular explication of suffering (samsara) as total when the first noble truth says a bit more on the matter.
Taken as a whole I think the suttas support the view that the goal is both liberation from dukkha ( Nibbana ) and liberation from samsara ( Pari-nibbana ), and that these are 2 sides of the same coin rather than contradictory objectives.

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daverupa
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Re: OMG! I'm not so special!

Post by daverupa »

Spiny O'Norman wrote:Taken as a whole I think the suttas support the view that the goal is both liberation from dukkha ( Nibbana ) and liberation from samsara ( Pari-nibbana ), and that these are 2 sides of the same coin rather than contradictory objectives.

Spiny
MN 22 wrote:
Both formerly and now, monks, I declare only stress and the cessation of stress.
SN 38.14 wrote:
"'Stress, stress,' it is said, my friend Sariputta. Which type of stress [are they referring to]?"

"There are these three forms of stressfulness, my friend: the stressfulness of pain, the stressfulness of fabrication, the stressfulness of change. These are the three forms of stressfulness."
SN 56.11 wrote:"Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress: Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.
:heart:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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