Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Nyana
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by Nyana »

dhamma follower wrote:I was not talking about alteration, but about momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession.
I know you were. And "momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession" is a conceptual fiction.
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Alex123
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by Alex123 »

Hello Ñāṇa,
Ñāṇa wrote:And "momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession" is a conceptual fiction.
What is your opinion about: Time is not an objective container into which dhammas are placed. Impermanence/Change is the quality of dhammas, and change is discontinuous because dhamma can endure.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And that, of course, characterizes the whole. Again, you make my point.
Not to mention the dubious practice of attending to the continual "dissolution" (bhaṅga) of momentary nāma and rūpa. Never mind the fact that the idea of the continual "dissolution" of momentary nāma and rūpa is never attested to in the suttas and has nothing to do with the instructions found in the Satipaṭṭhāna Suttas and is introduced through the power of suggestion on the part of the vipassanā teacher and later confirmed as an actual and true perception of the impermanence of reality.
And it never ends, but as usual you paint with broad brush strokes without any subtlety or discrimination.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nyana
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by Nyana »

Alex123 wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:And "momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession" is a conceptual fiction.
What is your opinion about: Time is not an objective container into which dhammas are placed. Impermanence/Change is the quality of dhammas, and change is discontinuous because dhamma can endure.
I think we should avoid falling victim to the seductive allure of conceptual realism.
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Alex123
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by Alex123 »

Ñāṇa wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:And "momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession" is a conceptual fiction.
What is your opinion about: Time is not an objective container into which dhammas are placed. Impermanence/Change is the quality of dhammas, and change is discontinuous because dhamma can endure.
I think we should avoid falling victim to the seductive allure of conceptual realism.
Please explain. Empirically (not metaphysically!) we can see bodies growing older, aging and dying. This does not have to imply any metaphysics, just what can be empirically observed.

"this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

IMHO it is this kind of dukkha that really matters, not the "it is all an illusion" or "rupas change and die every second".
Nyana
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by Nyana »

Alex123 wrote:IMHO it is this kind of dukkha that really matters
Yes, I agree.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by chownah »

Alex123 wrote: Empirically (not metaphysically!) we can see bodies growing older, aging and dying. This does not have to imply any metaphysics, just what can be empirically observed.
I want to point out that we can not see bodies growing older. As a first approximation what we do is to observe a body at different points of time and note differences....then we use these differences to support a fabricated concept of "aging" or "growing older". Also, I think that people would agree that as time passes everything gets older whether there is an observed change or not.....so then "getting older" is just another way of saying that time has passed.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by retrofuturist »

Nice observation, Chownah.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by ancientbuddhism »

The Early Buddhist Notion of the Middle Path – David J. Kalupahana


In addition to discussing the Middle Way intrinsic to teachings of the early schools, there is discussion of ‘theories of moments (kṣaṇa)’ from page 3.
Last edited by ancientbuddhism on Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by dhamma follower »

Ñāṇa wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:I was not talking about alteration, but about momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession.
I know you were. And "momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession" is a conceptual fiction.
which is an opinion of yours, an opinion strongly defied by Dependent Origination.

Regards,
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by dhamma follower »

Alex123 wrote:
"this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

IMHO it is this kind of dukkha that really matters, not the "it is all an illusion" or "rupas change and die every second".
Hi Alex,

The first sacca, sacca dukkha includes aging, but extends far beyond than that.

The five aggregates of clinging are the last to be mentioned. Without knowing directly the characteristics of each khanda, as dhammas, how can you know them by your own experience as anicca, dukkha, anatta?

Regards,
Nyana
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by Nyana »

dhamma follower wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:I know you were. And "momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession" is a conceptual fiction.
which is an opinion of yours, an opinion strongly defied by Dependent Origination.
Oh? How so?
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by daverupa »

Mindfulness and Awareness, by Ñāṇavīra Thera
The Pali word for awareness is sampajañña. In the suttas it is frequently linked with mindfulness (sati) in the compound sati-sampajañña, mindfulness and awareness. In the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta, awareness (of bodily actions) is included in the section on mindfulness of the body, so we can perhaps conclude that, while it is not different from mindfulness, awareness is rather more specialised in meaning. Mindfulness is general recollectedness, not being scatterbrained; whereas awareness is more precisely keeping oneself under constant observation, not letting one’s actions (or thoughts, or feelings etc.) pass unnoticed.
source
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by dhamma follower »

Ñāṇa wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:I know you were. And "momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession" is a conceptual fiction.
which is an opinion of yours, an opinion strongly defied by Dependent Origination.
Oh? How so?
I had presented my reasoning earlier:
Just consider how much information you can get in a second: seeing someone, knowing the details of his/her face, recognizing who is the person, wanting to avoid, designing a scheme to do it...All of that involve so many mind processes and different sense-doors and kinds of consciousness, in just a second. That much already tells us how quickly dhammas rise and fall. Because consciousness arises dependently on the bases and objects, how many consciousness must rise and fall before all that information is perceived and processed?
Regards,
daverupa
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by daverupa »

dhamma follower wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:I was not talking about alteration, but about momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession.
I know you were. And "momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession" is a conceptual fiction.
which is an opinion of yours, an opinion strongly defied by Dependent Origination.

Regards,
Well, paticcasamuppada is a process, while discreet momentary dhammas form an event-series (with concomitant problems to do with continuity). So, in fact, the Buddha's preference for talking in terms of paticcasamuppada (or rather, idapaccayata) - instead of via a theory of innumerable dhammas - is noteworthy in this context. A lot of people think momentary dhammas are what the Buddha was really talking about, but he never actually does so. It's all process-based language, never event-based.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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