Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:28 am

Dmytro wrote:
Dukkhanirodha wrote:Can you explain then how it would make sense that the ability to recollect the past would be developped by observing the reality of the body and mind in the present moment, otherwise than by the way explained in the twofold definition I gave above (see immediately previous post)?


Sati (remembrance) means either recollection of past events, or remembrance in the present. In the context of Satipatthana, it's remembrance in the present.
And how is that different from what Ven Analayo has put forth?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:29 am

TMingyur wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:quote]That is an interesting question. As William James has said: “What you see is what you bring." So, where in all of this are we free of conceptual structuring, papañca?

When volitional formations cease there is no "conceptual structuring".
Then upon what basis do they cease?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Nyana » Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:35 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:So, where in all of this are we free of conceptual structuring, papañca?

When we stop buying into what Ñāṇananda has referred to as the "relentless tyranny of the empirical consciousness." That is, the "myth of the given."
Thank you, but that really, probably, needs a bit more detail to be meaningful.

I've posted dozens of replies here on DW dealing with this specific issue.

tiltbillings wrote:That does not answer the question in its context.

Sure it does.
Last edited by Nyana on Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby ground » Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:36 am

retrofuturist wrote:greeting tmingyur,

i'm on my phone so this is going to be just a partial response but what im differentiating is impermanence qua actively formed phenomena, as distinct to impermance qua raw unprocessed sensory stimuli. (and to forestall the inevitable objection, im not saying that tilt or analayo favour one over the other, but in most contemporary discourse on satipatthana and 'vipassana' that the latter is often expressed to the
exclusion of the former). Metta, Retro. :)


Thanks for the explanation.
"actively formed phenomena" and "raw unprocessed sensory stimuli" for me appears tricky since I am inclined to understand "actively formed phenomena" as both, physically and mentally "formed" and "raw unprocessed sensory stimuli" may never be accessible in a "non-formed" mode since the body contributes to the "forming" of phenomena.

Kind regards
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:43 am

Ñāṇa wrote:I've posted dozens of replies here on DW dealing with this specific issue.
That is nice, but I do not read everyone's posts.
tiltbillings wrote:That does not answer the question in its context.

Sure it does.
If you say so.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Nyana » Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:53 am

tiltbillings wrote:He could have and should have offered a great deal more detail, but I also think he is quite correct in this:


Understanding sati in this way facilitates relating it to the context
of satipatthana, where it is not concerned with recalling past events,
but functions as awareness of the present moment.18 In the context
of satipatthana meditation, it is due to the presence of sati that one is
able to remember what is otherwise only too easily forgotten: the
present moment.


As I've already mentioned to Dukkhanirodha, "present moment awareness" is viññāṇa. Specifically, the five sensory consciousnesses. It isn't sati. Sati functions to direct awareness away from the five strands of sensual pleasure and place, develop, & maintain awareness within the domain of any one of the four satipaṭṭhānas.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Nyana » Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:56 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:I've posted dozens of replies here on DW dealing with this specific issue.
That is nice, but I do not read everyone's posts.

You've actively participated in numerous threads dealing with the subject, often directly responding to the posts in question. In point of fact, just in the past few weeks I deleted a post which you objected to, which pertained to this issue in the context of the two truths theory.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:59 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:I've posted dozens of replies here on DW dealing with this specific issue.
That is nice, but I do not read everyone's posts.
You've actively participated in numerous threads dealing with the subject, often directly responding to the posts in question. In point of fact, just in the past few weeks I deleted a post which you objected to, which pertained to this issue in the context of the two truths theory.
Good grief.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:04 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:He could have and should have offered a great deal more detail, but I also think he is quite correct in this:


Understanding sati in this way facilitates relating it to the context
of satipatthana, where it is not concerned with recalling past events,
but functions as awareness of the present moment.18 In the context
of satipatthana meditation, it is due to the presence of sati that one is
able to remember what is otherwise only too easily forgotten: the
present moment.


As I've already mentioned to Dukkhanirodha, "present moment awareness" is viññāṇa. Specifically, the five sensory consciousnesses. It isn't sati. Sati functions to direct awareness away from the five strands of sensual pleasure and place, develop, & maintain awareness within the domain of any one of the four satipaṭṭhānas.
That is assuming that these terms have set in concrete, are not multi-valent in meaning depending upon context, and have no non-overlapping uses/meanings with other words, but then that would really describe Pali as it is used in the suttas. So far, I have not seen anything in this thread or the related threads that comes close to laying waste to Ven Analayo's position.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Nyana » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:20 am

tiltbillings wrote:That is assuming that these terms have set in concrete

No it isn't. No such assumption was made. I was very specific in what I was criticizing.

tiltbillings wrote:So far, I have not seen anything in this thread or the related threads that comes close to laying waste to Ven Analayo's position.

"Laying waste"?...There's no need to "lay waste" to anything. Let's get real -- you are always ready to attack anything which questions the dubious assumptions of Burmese vipassanā. Assumptions which are old and boring and better set aside when writing a doctoral dissertation in 2002.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:41 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:So far, I have not seen anything in this thread or the related threads that comes close to laying waste to Ven Analayo's position.

"Laying waste"?...There's no need to "lay waste" to anything. Let's get real -- you are always ready to attack anything which questions the dubious assumptions of Burmese vipassanā. Assumptions which are old and boring and better set aside when writing a doctoral dissertation in 2002.
He said, laying waste (or trying to), to Burmese vipassana. The dubious assumptions were certainly put forth by learned doctors of the Theravada. They certainly are open to criticism. What this -- better set aside when writing a doctoral dissertation in 2002 -- damdifino. Until you explain it, it is cryptic stuff that says nothing.

As for attacking "anything which questions the dubious assumptions of Burmese vipassanā," I have yet to see anything here that yet successfully questions the supposed dubious assumptions of Burmese vipassana. I see a lot of oppositional pontificating about it, I see somethings that are quite good and interesting in opposition, but I have yet to see anything definative that would change my view about things. I think, in general, these Burmese vipassana guys got it right.

I do not push Burmese vipassana, but I will defend it.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Nyana » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:04 am

tiltbillings wrote:What this -- better set aside when writing a doctoral dissertation in 2002 -- damdifino. Until you explain it, it is cryptic stuff that says nothing.

Anālayo's book is based on his doctoral dissertation.

tiltbillings wrote:I do not push Burmese vipassana, but I will defend it.

That's fine. And those of us who are quite unconcerned with the apologetics of Burmese vipassanā will continue to post here on DW in the midst of your protests and complaints.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:16 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:What this -- better set aside when writing a doctoral dissertation in 2002 -- damdifino. Until you explain it, it is cryptic stuff that says nothing.

Anālayo's book is based on his doctoral dissertation.
And it is a good one.

tiltbillings wrote:I do not push Burmese vipassana, but I will defend it.

That's fine. And those of us who are quite unconcerned with the apologetics of Burmese vipassanā will continue to post here on DW in the midst of your protests and complaints.
You seem to be implying that apologetics is not a good thing, but like anything it depends. As far as my protest and complaints go, they certainly are a valid response to the those who are, to use your word, unconcerned about accurately portraying the Burmese vipassana traditions.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Dmytro » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:46 am

Dukkhanirodha wrote:All sixteen talks had been prepared in English, and then read in English by the Sayadaw

So I am afraid you are forced to admit that it happens that you are wrong


I admit that I have mistaken, in that the talks were prepared in English.

Nevertheless, the usage of the term 'mindfulness' is strongly dictated by the Western Buddhist traditions. Very few people dared to use different term for 'sati'. So the usage of the term 'mindfulness' proves very little.

and that your views are in contradiction with those of at least two of the greatest meditation teachers we have today: Pa Auk Sayadaw and SN Goenka (for the latter I can easily provide the proof).


I would appreciate if you would provide the definition of 'sati' by Ven. Pa Auk Sayadaw and S N Goenka.

I also bring under your attention that you have still not provided a satisfactory response to the contextual analysis I proposed.

This answer looks very much like an attempt to drown the fish. I provide you with a very clear context and a very clear remark and you answer with an obscure formula in Pali taken from the commentary, without proper English translation, to which you ascribe a very profound meaning.

This is no satisfactory answer and is also irrelevant, be it only because the arising of the nimitta comes after a certain amount of practice, whereas the above mentioned formula explains how to set up oneself to begin the practice.


Indeed the arising of the nimitta comes after a certain amount of practice. At first 'sati' is established on the breath through other means.

I consider my answer highly relevant and reliable, since it comes from the Theravada tradition itself. If you will provide a precise explanation of this passage from the suttas themselves, I will appreciate it.

:anjali:
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby cooran » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:01 am

Hello Dmytro,

S.N. Goenka talking about Sati:

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=7IN ... ti&f=false

with metta
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:06 am

Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:So, where in all of this are we free of conceptual structuring, papañca?

Ñāṇa wrote:When we stop buying into what Ñāṇananda has referred to as the "relentless tyranny of the empirical consciousness." That is, the "myth of the given."

tiltbillings wrote:That does not answer the question in its context.

Ñāṇa wrote:Sure it does.

Yes - it sure does - very much so.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Dmytro » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:14 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Sati (remembrance) means either recollection of past events, or remembrance in the present. In the context of Satipatthana, it's remembrance in the present.
And how is that different from what Ven Analayo has put forth?


Ven. Analayo writes that in the context of Satipatthana, 'sati' isn't related to memory, but means instead "present moment awareness", "bare attention", etc.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:16 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:So, where in all of this are we free of conceptual structuring, papañca?

Ñāṇa wrote:When we stop buying into what Ñāṇananda has referred to as the "relentless tyranny of the empirical consciousness." That is, the "myth of the given."

tiltbillings wrote:That does not answer the question in its context.

Ñāṇa wrote:Sure it does.

Yes - it sure does - very much so.
Okay, then what is the "relentless tyranny of the empirical consciousness?" And this -- 'That is, the "myth of the given"' -- means what? While these expressions may mean something to you two, they very may not mean anything to others reading this, which is to say, then, the response does not answer the question in the context it was asked.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:17 am

Dmytro wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Sati (remembrance) means either recollection of past events, or remembrance in the present. In the context of Satipatthana, it's remembrance in the present.
And how is that different from what Ven Analayo has put forth?


Ven. Analayo writes that in the context of Satipatthana, 'sati' isn't related to memory, but means instead "present moment awareness", "bare attention", etc.
Does not answer my question, nor does it help when you take what Ven Analayo has to say out of its full context.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Dmytro » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:20 am

Hello Chris,

cooran wrote:S.N. Goenka talking about Sati:

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=7IN ... ti&f=false


Thank you, that's quite interesting.

With metta, Dmytro
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