Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Post Reply
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
TMingyur wrote:Actually I fully agree with Tilt's wording "one does not have a direct perception of impermanence"
I do too. But I would add that "perception" isn't the best translation of saññā. "Recognition" is better.
I would opt for "apperception."
Secondly, saññā is also a fabrication (saṅkhāra). Thirdly, the recognition of impermanence (aniccasaññā) would be more accurately phrased as the recognition of the absence of permanence. Similarly, the recognition of unsatisfactoriness (dukkhasaññā) is the recognition of the absence of satisfactoriness in that which is not permanent. And the recognition of selflessness (anattasaññā) is the recognition of the absence of a permanent and satisfactory self in that which is not permanent and not satisfactory.
The question in all of this were is yathā-bhūta as opposed to just constructing more fabrications?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:Here is a thread about the objections to Ven Analayo's supposed wrong views about sati and I am seeing, instead, a fair amount of agreement with Ven Analayo's analysis.
IMO Ven. Anālayo could have spent more time and effort detailing the fundamentals of sati. He begins in the right place (p. 46):
  • The noun sati is related to the verb sarati, to remember. Sati in the sense of "memory" occurs on several occasions in the discourses, and also in the standard definitions of sati given in the Abhidhamma and the commentaries.
But only three paragraphs later he is off stating his theory that sati "functions as awareness of the present moment." So much for the fundamentals and details offered in the ancient Pāli texts....
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by tiltbillings »

TMingyur wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
TMingyur wrote:I mean of course there is always a direct perception underlying every conceptual fabrication
Okay, but the question is, does the "conceptual fabrication" accurately reflect the perception?
It arises dependent on the "direct" perception and other causes and conditions. Since an effect is not its own cause I cannot conceive of what "accurately reflect" may mean in this context.
That is an interesting question. As William James has said: “What you see is what you bring." So, where in all of this are we free of conceptual structuring, papañca?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Assaji
Posts: 2106
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by Assaji »

Dukkhanirodha wrote:Can you explain then how it would make sense that the ability to recollect the past would be developped by observing the reality of the body and mind in the present moment, otherwise than by the way explained in the twofold definition I gave above (see immediately previous post)?
Sati (remembrance) means either recollection of past events, or remembrance in the present. In the context of Satipatthana, it's remembrance in the present.
This is right, but only in a partial way. You are obviously forgetting that we are also left with the practice. The suttas will always remain cryptic for those who do not practice.
I would appreciate some respect on your part, or the conversation would be impossible.

Actual practice is the precise reason why I consider the exact meaning of 'sati' important. Misunderstanding of this term can pave a way to practice which is at best fruitless.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tmingyur,

I'm on my phone so this is going to be just a partial response but what I'm differentiating between is impermanence qua actively formed phenomena, as distinct to impermance qua raw unprocessed sensory stimuli. (and to forestall the inevitable objection, im not saying that Tilt or Analayo favour one over the other, but in most contemporary discourse on satipatthana and 'vipassana' it is the latter which is often expressed to the exclusion of the former).

Metta,
Retro. :)
Last edited by retrofuturist on Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:04 am, edited 4 times in total.
Reason: fixed formatting - originally posted via mobile phone
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:The question in all of this were is yathā-bhūta as opposed to just constructing more fabrications?
Yathābhūta:
  • Yathā (adv.) [fr. ya˚; Vedic yathā; cp. kathā, tathā] as, like, in relation to, after (the manner of).

    Bhūta [pp. of bhavati, Vedic etc. bhūta] grown, become; born, produced; nature as the result of becoming.
tiltbillings wrote:as opposed to just constructing more fabrications?
The path is fabricated to lead to dispassion, cessation, and liberation.
User avatar
ground
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:01 am

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by ground »

tiltbillings wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Okay, but the question is, does the "conceptual fabrication" accurately reflect the perception?
It arises dependent on the "direct" perception and other causes and conditions. Since an effect is not its own cause I cannot conceive of what "accurately reflect" may mean in this context.
That is an interesting question. As William James has said: “What you see is what you bring." So, where in all of this are we free of conceptual structuring, papañca?
When volitional formations cease there is no "conceptual structuring". However then there is still the "structuring" caused by the body which however is non-conceptual.

Kind regards
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:So, where in all of this are we free of conceptual structuring, papañca?
When we stop buying into what Ñāṇananda has referred to as the "relentless tyranny of the empirical consciousness." That is, the "myth of the given."
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Here is a thread about the objections to Ven Analayo's supposed wrong views about sati and I am seeing, instead, a fair amount of agreement with Ven Analayo's analysis.
IMO Ven. Anālayo could have spent more time and effort detailing the fundamentals of sati. He begins in the right place (p. 46):
  • The noun sati is related to the verb sarati, to remember. Sati in the sense of "memory" occurs on several occasions in the discourses, and also in the standard definitions of sati given in the Abhidhamma and the commentaries.
But only three paragraphs later he is off stating his theory that sati "functions as awareness of the present moment." So much for the fundamentals and details offered in the ancient Pāli texts....
He could have and should have offered a great deal more detail, but I also think he is quite correct in this:

Page 47-8: This connotation of sati as memory appears also in its formal definition
in the discourses, which relates sati to the ability of calling to
mind what has been done or said long ago.16 A closer examination of
this definition, however, reveals that sati is not really defined as
memory, but as that which facilitates and enables memory. What
this definition of sati points to is that, if sati is present, memory will
be able to function well.17 Understanding sati in this way facilitates relating it to the context
of satipatthana, where it is not concerned with recalling past events,
but functions as awareness of the present moment.18 In the context
of satipatthana meditation, it is due to the presence of sati that one is
able to remember what is otherwise only too easily forgotten: the
present moment.


16 e.g. at M I356.
17 The passage at M I 356 could then be rendered as: "he is mindful, being endowed with
highest discriminative mindfulness (so that) things said or done long ago are recalled
and remembered." Nanamoli 1995=P.1252n-560, explains: "keen attentiveness to the
present forms the basis for an accurate memory of the past." Nanananda 1984: p.28,
points out: "mindfulness and memory ... the keenness of the one naturally leads to
the clarity of the other."
18 Nanaponika 1992:P.9; Nanavira 1987=P.382; and T.W. Rhys Davids 1966:vol.Il, P·322.
Griffith 1992:p 111, explains: "the basic meaning of smrti and derivatives in Buddhist
technical discourse ... has to do with observation and attention, not with awareness
of past objects."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:So, where in all of this are we free of conceptual structuring, papañca?
When we stop buying into what Ñāṇananda has referred to as the "relentless tyranny of the empirical consciousness." That is, the "myth of the given."
Thank you, but that really, probably, needs a bit more detail to be meaningful. That does not answer the question in its context.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:
Dukkhanirodha wrote:Can you explain then how it would make sense that the ability to recollect the past would be developped by observing the reality of the body and mind in the present moment, otherwise than by the way explained in the twofold definition I gave above (see immediately previous post)?
Sati (remembrance) means either recollection of past events, or remembrance in the present. In the context of Satipatthana, it's remembrance in the present.
And how is that different from what Ven Analayo has put forth?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by tiltbillings »

TMingyur wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:quote]That is an interesting question. As William James has said: “What you see is what you bring." So, where in all of this are we free of conceptual structuring, papañca?
When volitional formations cease there is no "conceptual structuring".
Then upon what basis do they cease?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:So, where in all of this are we free of conceptual structuring, papañca?
When we stop buying into what Ñāṇananda has referred to as the "relentless tyranny of the empirical consciousness." That is, the "myth of the given."
Thank you, but that really, probably, needs a bit more detail to be meaningful.
I've posted dozens of replies here on DW dealing with this specific issue.
tiltbillings wrote:That does not answer the question in its context.
Sure it does.
Last edited by Nyana on Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
ground
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:01 am

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by ground »

retrofuturist wrote:greeting tmingyur,

i'm on my phone so this is going to be just a partial response but what im differentiating is impermanence qua actively formed phenomena, as distinct to impermance qua raw unprocessed sensory stimuli. (and to forestall the inevitable objection, im not saying that tilt or analayo favour one over the other, but in most contemporary discourse on satipatthana and 'vipassana' that the latter is often expressed to the
exclusion of the former). Metta, Retro. :)
Thanks for the explanation.
"actively formed phenomena" and "raw unprocessed sensory stimuli" for me appears tricky since I am inclined to understand "actively formed phenomena" as both, physically and mentally "formed" and "raw unprocessed sensory stimuli" may never be accessible in a "non-formed" mode since the body contributes to the "forming" of phenomena.

Kind regards
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:I've posted dozens of replies here on DW dealing with this specific issue.
That is nice, but I do not read everyone's posts.
tiltbillings wrote:That does not answer the question in its context.
Sure it does.
If you say so.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Post Reply