Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Prasadachitta
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:52 am
Location: San Francisco (The Mission) Ca USA
Contact:

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by Prasadachitta »

Hi all,

I suggest that proper definitions can in some cases shade from this to that without a certain point at which this becomes that. For example, I think Sati is somthing that can be present to varying degrees. Somtimes it is so lacking that you can reasonobly say that this is a mind without sati but that does not mean there is no sati at all. So in one case the word is used to talk about a quality which is usually present but can increase or decreas. In anouther instance the word can be used to talk about a mind which has an intentionally hightened level of that quality to the point where it is relativly more present than it usually is. Language is like this and we need to be awair that overly technical definitions almost always create a difficulty in commuicating effective understanding about how to practice.

Culivate wellbeing

Prasadachitta
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by Nyana »

Zom wrote:So - as far as I understood - everyone agrees that "awareness in/to the present moment " is a vital part of meditation ,)
There is no "present moment" other than presently occurring phenomena.
Zom wrote:So the only disputable point is how to call this awareness - "sati" or not "sati" (or - "included into sati")? Does that really matter?
It's a question of precision really, i.e. how finely does one wish to differentiate between mental factors. It also tangentially relates to how we choose to cultivate samādhi.

On a more general note, we need to appreciate just how central the faculty of memory is for our ability to function in the world. Without memory we wouldn't be able to navigate from our house to the corner store. Without memory our closest friends and family would be strangers. Without memory we wouldn't be able to practice meditation. Each day would be like encountering the Buddhadhamma for the first time.
User avatar
ancientbuddhism
Posts: 887
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:53 pm
Location: Cyberia

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by ancientbuddhism »

Ñāṇa wrote: “I don't see much support for the notion of sati being "bare attention" or "bare awareness" in the suttas or commentaries. There are other terms which designate this type of mental function such as attention (manasikāra) or awareness (sampajañña).”
Yes, ‘ñāṇamattāya patissatimattāya’ as ‘mere-ñāṇa and mere-sati’
tiltbillings wrote: “What I am taking away from what you are saying here is that "bare awareness" is not the issue; rather, it is where do we fit that notion.”
For what its worth, to me Analayo’s book is a useful survey of the topic of Satipaṭṭhāna, and as such he draws in various viewpoints, early and late, to the topic (he even cited my uppajaya at one point). For me this makes this book helpful to research and explore the topic along with other such books.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

A Handful of Leaves
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:In other words, one thinks oneself to awakening.
What Dmytro said does not warrant this contemptuous "one thinks oneself to awakening" one-liner that sometimes gets bandied around here. Such accusations are only on-mark when there is unrestrained conceptual proliferation at play devoid of clear-knowing, but what Dmytro says is not a papanca-yana. Speaking of which, as people have explained above, manasikara is a mental function applicable to both sati and "bare awareness", so any implication that the mind does not play an active role in awakening and ought to be a passive recipient of wisdom is in error. Dmytro's explanation pertains to directing that attention to the appropriate things, and cultivating wholesome factors, in a regular and sustained manner - and who could argue against that, even if one prefers to go about it (or frame it) in another way?

It's worth bearing in mind that "the end-game" of the Noble Eightfold Path is a mind that has no roots or impetus for craving, and I can see how what Dmytro is explaining has the potential to lead to that. For any specific method being investigated, it is worth asking oneself, "How will this practice, rightly followed, lead to that end state?". What Dmytro discusses seems an appropriate application of samma sati, based on the suttas, which would lead to that. It would lead to an understanding that the subtle is preferable to the gross, and ultimately, as part of a broader application of the N8P (including Right View), dispassion with regards to all sankharas.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Sekha
Posts: 789
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:32 am
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by Sekha »

Dmytro wrote: Sati, in the context of satipatthana, instead of past events recollection, denotes remembrance
:thinking:
Then can you explain how sati is to be understood as remembrance in the following context?
SN 47.40 wrote:Katamā ca bhikkhave, satipaṭṭhāna-bhāvana? idha bhikkhave, bhikkhu samudaya-dhamm'ānupassī kāyasmiṃ viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhā-domanassaṃ. Vaya-dhamm'ānupassī kāyasmiṃ viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhā-domanassaṃ. Samudaya-vaya-dhamm'ānupassī kāyasmiṃ viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhā-domanassaṃ.

And what, bhikkhus, is the bhāvana of the satipaṭṭhānas? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwells observing the phenomenon of arising in kāya, ātāpī sampajāno satimā, having given up abhijjhā-domanassa towards the world. He dwells observing the phenomenon of passing away in kāya, ātāpī sampajāno satimā, having given up abhijjhā-domanassa towards the world. He dwells observing the phenomena of arising and passing away in kāya, ātāpī sampajāno satimā, having given up abhijjhā-domanassa towards the world.

http://www.suttapitaka.net/sutta/samyut ... tipatthana" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
to be noted that this paragraph applies without restriction to sati, because the definition of being sato (endowed with sati) and satipaṭṭhāna are identical: the proof here and there.

IMO this paragraph makes it very clear that the practice of sati involves the observation of phenomena in the present moment, and in this context there is little room IMO for remembrance.

:anjali:
Last edited by Sekha on Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
manas
Posts: 2678
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by manas »

Zom wrote:So - as far as I understood - everyone agrees that "awareness in/to the present moment " is a vital part of meditation ,)
So the only disputable point is how to call this awareness - "sati" or not "sati" (or - "included into sati")? Does that really matter?
Hi Zom,

I used to think that sati was "awareness in/to the present moment " but I read somewhere (by a very reputable monk-scholar) that really strictly speaking this is a misleading definition. We are instructed to be aware of/in the four frames of reference; body, feelings, mind, and mind-objects, and if we are focussed there we will, naturally, be in the present as well. If you mean that the mind should actually be here, right now, aware of itself and/or it's object, and not lost in some thought - then yes, I do know what you mean. But I think that we need to be careful in how we define it, because it subtly changes the meaning and thus how someone might practise it. Sati has to be present for us to cognize the object in a useful way. But it is the object itself that needs to be standing out clearly, and so in a way sati is just a tool, like our hands that reach out to catch a ball, we keep our eyes on the ball, not on our hands. Sometimes I feel that when sati is at it's brightest, it operates invisibly, in that only the object is manifest.

Anyway, this is such an interesting subject...there is so much to learn. Even just a clear and consistent definition of sati that everyone can agree on, it seems to be hard to find!

with metta
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
chownah
Posts: 9336
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by chownah »

It seems that a major point of concern here has been whether being mindful of the present moment is sati....or not. My question is if one is truly in the present moment that what else could they be aware of if not body, feelings, mind, and mind-objects? In the exact present moment what else could there be?
chownah
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:In other words, one thinks oneself to awakening.
What Dmytro said does not warrant this contemptuous "one thinks oneself to awakening" one-liner that sometimes gets bandied around here.
It is no more contemptuous than are Dmytro's various strawman attacks on the idea of mindfulness vis a vis sati.

Let us look at the OP: "He mentions the Sutta-nipata passages, which I will quote: . . . I don't see here any trace of "present moment awareness" meaning of sati."

What Ven Analayo actually said:
Sati as present moment awareness is similarly reflected in the presentations
of the Patisambhiddimagga and the Visuddhimagga, according
to which the characteristic quality of sati is "presence"
(upatthiina), whether as a faculty (indriya), as an awakening factor
(bojjhanga), as a factor of the noble eightfold path, or at the moment
of realization.19
Thus mindfulness being present (upatthitasati) can be understood
to imply presence of mind, in so far as it is directly opposed to
absent-mindedness (mutthassati); presence of mind in the sense
that, endowed with sati, one is wide awake in regard to the present
moment.20 Owing to such presence of mind, whatever one does or
says will be clearly apprehended by the mind, and thus can be more
easily remembered later on.21
Sati is required not only to fully take in the moment to be remembered,
but also to bring this moment back to mind at a later time. To
"re-collect", then, becomes just a particular instance of a state of
mind characterized by "collectedness" and the absence of distraction.22
This twofold character of sati can also be found in some verses
in the Sutta Nipiita, which instruct the listener to set out with sati,
subsequent to an instruction given by the Buddha.23 In these instances
sati seems to combine both present moment awareness and
remembering what the Buddha had taught.


19 Paps I 16;Patis I 116;and Vism 510.
20 Cf. S I 44, where sati is related to wakefulness. A related nuance occurs at Vism 464,
which relates sati to strong cognition (thirasanna).
21 The opposite case is documented at Vin II 261,where a nun failed to memorize the
training rules for lack of sati.
22 Nanananda 1993: PA7·
23 Sn 1053;Sn 1066;and Sn 1085.
Ven Analayo is making a far more nuanced and reasonable argument than our critic is allowing for (or seems to understand).
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by tiltbillings »

Ven Analayo wrote:Sati as present moment awareness is similarly reflected in the presentations of the Patisambhiddimagga and the Visuddhimagga, according
to which the characteristic quality of sati is "presence"
(upatthiina), whether as a faculty (indriya), as an awakening factor
(bojjhanga), as a factor of the noble eightfold path, or at the moment
of realization.19
19 Paps I 16;Patis I 116;and Vism 510.
Dmytro in his OP wrote: Regarding his reference to Patisambhidamagga and Visuddhimagga, and the word "upatthāna". This word is one of the components of the compound "satipatthana". As explained in the Patisambhidamagga-Atthakatha 2.509, upatthāna refers to the sati being established on the particular basis (arammana). (See the Pali quote at http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5656" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ). "Upatthāna" does not mean "presence".
PTS Dictionary:
Upaṭṭhahati & ˚ṭṭhāti

Upaṭṭhahati & ˚ṭṭhāti [upa + sthā, cp. upatiṭṭhati] 1 (trs.) to stand near or at hand (with acc.), to wait on, attend on, serve, minister, to care for, look after, nurse (in sickness) Vin i.50, 302; iv.326; M iii.25; S i.167; A iii.94; v.72; Sn 82 = 481 (imper. ˚ṭṭhahassu); J i.67 (ppr. ˚ṭṭhahamāna), 262 (ppr. ˚ṭṭhahanto); iv.131; v.396; Dpvs ii.16; PvA 19, 20. -- aor. upaṭṭhahi PvA 14, 42, 82. -- inf. upaṭṭhātuŋ A v.72; PvA 20. -- ger. upaṭṭhahitvā PvA 76. -- grd. upaṭṭhātabba Vin i.302; PvA 20. -- pp. upaṭṭhita (q. v.). -- 2. (intrs.) to stand out or forth, to appear, to arise, occur, to be present M i.104 sq.; A iv.32; J iv.203 (mante anupaṭṭhahante since the spell did not occur to him); v.207; Miln 64; ThA 258. <-> aor. upaṭṭhāsi J i.61; iv.3; PvA 42. -- Caus. I. upaṭṭheti; Caus. II. upaṭṭhapeti & ˚ṭṭhāpeti (q. v.). -- Pass. upaṭṭhīyati J iv.131 (ppr. ˚ṭṭhiyamāna), & upaṭṭhahīyati A iii.94 (ppr. ˚ṭṭhahiyamāna).

Upaṭṭhāka

Upaṭṭhāka [fr. upa + sthā, cp. BSk. upasthāka M Vastu i.251, and upasthāyaka Divy 426; Av. Ś. i.214; ii.85, 112.] a servitor, personal attendant, servant, "famulus". Ānanda was the last u. of Gotama Buddha (see D i.206; Th 1, 1041 f.; ThA in Brethren loc. cit.; Vin i.179 (Sāgato u.), 194; ii.186; iii.66; iv.47; D i.150 (Nāgita); S iii.113; A i.121; iii.31, 189; J i 15, 100 (a merchant's); ii.416; Pug 28; DhA ii.93; VvA 149; PvA 211. -- agg˚ main follower, chief attendant D ii.6; gilān˚ an attendant in sickness, nurse Vin i.303; A i.26; sangh˚ one who looks after the community of Bhikkhus Vin i.216; A i.26; iii.39. -- dupaṭṭhāka & supaṭṭhāka a bad (& good) attendant Vin i.302.
-- kula a family entertaining (or ministering to) a thera or a bhikkhu, a family devoted to the service of (gen.) Vin i.83 (Sāriputtassa), 213; iii.62, 66, 67; iv.283, 286; VvA 120.

Upaṭṭhāna

Upaṭṭhāna (nt.) [fr. upa + sthā] -- 1. attendance, waiting on, looking after, service, care, ministering A i.151, 225; Sn 138; J i.226, 237, 291; ii.101; iv.138; vi.351. Ps i.107; ii.7 sq., 28, 230; PvA 104, 145 (paccekabuddhassa), 176; VvA 75 (ther˚); Sdhp 560. -- 2. worship, (divine) service D iii.188 sq. (˚ŋ gacchati); PvA 122. Buddh˚ attendance on a Buddha PvA 93; ThA 18. <-> 3. a state room J iii.257.
-- sambhāra means of catering, provisions PvA 20. -- sālā hall for attendance, assembly room, chapel [cp. BSk. upasthāna -- śālā Divy 207] Vin i.49, 139; ii.153, 208; iii. 70 (at Vesālī); iv.15, 42; D ii.119 (at Vesālī); S ii.280; v.321; A ii.51, 197; iii.298; DhA i.37, 38; iii.413.

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... li.1693671" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I would say the Ven Analayo is on good ground here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by Nyana »

Dukkhanirodha wrote:IMO this paragraph makes it very clear that the practice of sati involves the observation of phenomena in the present moment, and in this context there is little room IMO for remembrance.
Without an ongoing ability to remember what we are doing we cannot function in the world, and there can be no meaningful observation of presently occurring phenomena. For example, Clive Wearing has no capacity to retain short-term memories and lives in a vacuum of the immediate present with no context or experience of continuity.

User avatar
ground
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:01 am

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by ground »

Dukkhanirodha wrote:IMO this paragraph makes it very clear that the practice of sati involves the observation of phenomena in the present moment, and in this context there is little room IMO for remembrance.
If there is no remembrance at all then "observation" is not what the word "observation" implies.
I mean there are certainly such blank states where physical data enter the sense doors without there being any awareness of anything. "observation of phenomena" implies "awareness of phenomena" which in turn implies at least re-cognition of phenomena qua mere phenomena which already is an act of remembrance.
If there is not remembrance that there are what is called "phenomena" in conventional terms how could one observe these?
There does not have to be gross thought like "this is a phenomenon" for remembrance to occur.


Kind regards
chownah
Posts: 9336
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by chownah »

If we do not observe phenomena in the present moment then in which moment do we observe them?

Is a remembrance just a thought that arises that we ascribe to being something that happened in the past?...but isn't the rememberance actually happening in the present moment.....isn't it just a present thought about our views of something we ascribe to the past?
It seems unlikely that a remembrance is thinking IN the past....it is just thinking ABOUT the past but the thinking is happening in the present moment...I guess....I'd like to be notified if I've made some major blunder in this view....
Also, I'm still wondering about my question, If one is truly in the present moment then what else could they be aware of if not body, feelings, mind, and mind-objects? In the exact present moment what else could there be?

chownah
User avatar
Sekha
Posts: 789
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:32 am
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by Sekha »

An additional element occured to me, which sustains the standpoint adopted by Ven. Analayo and Tilt:
from Mahasatipatthana Sutta wrote:Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu araññagato vā rukkhamūlagato vā suññāgāragato vā nisīdati pallaṅkaṃ ābhujitvā ujuṃ kāyaṃ paṇidhāya parimukhaṃ satiṃ upaṭṭhapetvā. So satova assasati, satova passasati.

A bhikkhu, having gone to the forest or having gone at the root of a tree or having gone to an empty room, sits down folding the legs crosswise, setting kāya upright, and setting sati parimukhaṃ. Being sato, he breathes in, being sato he breathes out.

http://www.suttapitaka.net/formulae/vivitta.html#c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
How could it be possible to set remembrance on any spot of the body? IMO this interpretation does not fit in this context. It makes much more sense to understand it as "presence of mind" as suggested by Ven. Analayo.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
Sekha
Posts: 789
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:32 am
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by Sekha »

Ñāṇa wrote: Without an ongoing ability to remember (...) there can be no meaningful observation of presently occurring phenomena.
TMingyur wrote: If there is no remembrance at all then "observation" is not what the word "observation" implies.
I mean there are certainly such blank states where physical data enter the sense doors without there being any awareness of anything. "observation of phenomena" implies "awareness of phenomena" which in turn implies at least re-cognition of phenomena qua mere phenomena which already is an act of remembrance.
If there is not remembrance that there are what is called "phenomena" in conventional terms how could one observe these?
There does not have to be gross thought like "this is a phenomenon" for remembrance to occur.
For both these posts: no one said the ability to remember should be absent. What was said is that the mind should be present.

Mahasatipatthana Sutta instructions in ending § of each section: wrote:Yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya paṭissatimattāya anissito ca viharati.

Thus he develops his awareness to such an extent that there is mere understanding along with mere awareness.
http://tipitaka.org/stp-pali-eng-parallel#3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

VRI comments: Yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya paṭissatimattāya [Thus he develops his awareness to such an extent that there is mere understanding along with mere awareness.] The mind of the meditator at this stage is absorbed in the wisdom of anicca (the arising and passing away of sensations), with no identification beyond this awareness. With the base of this awareness he develops understanding with his own experience. This is paññā (wisdom). With his awareness thus established in anicca, there is no attraction to the world of mind and matter.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
ground
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:01 am

Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by ground »

Dukkhanirodha wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote: Without an ongoing ability to remember (...) there can be no meaningful observation of presently occurring phenomena.
TMingyur wrote: If there is no remembrance at all then "observation" is not what the word "observation" implies.
I mean there are certainly such blank states where physical data enter the sense doors without there being any awareness of anything. "observation of phenomena" implies "awareness of phenomena" which in turn implies at least re-cognition of phenomena qua mere phenomena which already is an act of remembrance.
If there is not remembrance that there are what is called "phenomena" in conventional terms how could one observe these?
There does not have to be gross thought like "this is a phenomenon" for remembrance to occur.
For both these posts: no one said the ability to remember should be absent. What was said is that the mind should be present.
What you actually said was this:
Dukkhanirodha wrote:IMO this paragraph makes it very clear that the practice of sati involves the observation of phenomena in the present moment, and in this context there is little room IMO for remembrance.
and "little room" certainly does not mean "absence".

But now you are speaking of "ability" without explicitly stating whether this "ability to remember" is manifesting through remembering or not.

But your quotes imply "restriced" remembering ("restriced" alluding to your "little room for"): "Thus he develops his awareness to such an extent ..." and "with no identification beyond this awareness".
Again "to such an extent" and "not beyond this awareness" implying this "little room for" remembrance.


Kind regards
Post Reply