Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Where we gather to focus on a single discourse or thematic collection from the Sutta Piṭaka (new selection every two weeks)
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Assaji
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by Assaji »

Hi Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote:While I would not disagree with the citations furnished by Dmytro and Piotr, I personally feel that the instructions given in those suttas fit more nicely with Sammavayama, in the sense that such sati is certainly necessary for Sammavayama.
Sati certainly works hand-in-hand with Sammavayama, - they are close together in the Eightfold Path.

The myth of Sati as some kind of present moment awareness (in the context of Satipatthana) may have originated due to the fact that there's no direct mention of abandoning the unskillful and developing the skillful in the Satipatthana sutta itself.

However the Chinese counterpart of Satipatthana sutta describes the application of right effort, and much more.

In the Pali Canon, Satipatthana Samyutta also provides for a wider view.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote: The myth of Sati as some kind of present moment awareness (in the context of Satipatthana) may have originated due to the fact that there's no direct mention of abandoning the unskillful and developing the skillful in the Satipatthana sutta itself. . . .
The problem with your position is that it really does not either accurately represent or counter what Ven Analayo has carefully (and textually) shown in the above PDF and in his book as a whole.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Assaji
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by Assaji »

tiltbillings wrote:The problem with your position is that it really does not either accurately represent or counter what Ven Analayo has carefully (and textually) shown in the above PDF and in his book as a whole.
I have not found in the Ven Analayo's work any scriptural support for the interpretation of 'sati' as 'choiceless awareness' and 'bare attention'. If you have found such support, I would be glad to read about it. Buddha's "Four Great References" from the Mahaparinibbana sutta directly require comparing the statements on Buddha's teaching with Sutta ana Vinaya. Statements without any support can't be called "reconstructions", they are outright misrepresentations of Buddha's teaching.

I appreciate the textual support when it is present, and to support the point I was making, I enclose the translation of Chinese equivalent of Satipa.t.thaana sutta by N J Smith.
It seems that it is no longer available in the Net, and may be interesting for many.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The problem with your position is that it really does not either accurately represent or counter what Ven Analayo has carefully (and textually) shown in the above PDF and in his book as a whole.
I have not found in the Ven Analayo's work any scriptural support for the interpretation of 'sati' as 'choiceless awareness' and 'bare attention'.
Of course you haven't and it seems you never will, but that does not mean that it is not there, as the above PDF shows quite clearly that it is. At this point, I think it is obvious what your position is, which is fine, but here are your words:
The honest approach would be to acknowledge that Buddha's teaching is partly lost, and we can only reconstruct it in the best way possible. This would provide space for many varieties of reconstruction, and for many possible practises. Then we would also be able to seek constructively for better and better reconstructions of the Buddha's teaching.
The problem is that you seem only want to allow for a "reconstruction" that fits the narrowest readings that you think is correct, despite what you are saying in this quote.

Now, this is a thread for discussing Ven Analayo's book. You have registered your position; it has been acknowledged as being a position you hold that differs from Ven Analayo's position as well as Ven Bodhi's position and likely the positions of such as Vens Ledi Sayadaw, Mahasi Sayadaw and any number of other Burmese vipassana teachers. If you want to continue to argue against Ven Analayo's position, you will need to start a new thread. Here, we are discussing Ven Analayo's position.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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manas
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by manas »

Dmytro wrote: The myth of Sati as some kind of present moment awareness (in the context of Satipatthana) may have originated due to the fact that there's no direct mention of abandoning the unskillful and developing the skillful in the Satipatthana sutta itself.
Hi Dmytro,

if we observe the sequence of what sati is meant to be observing in this section of the sutta, it leads us in the direction of overcoming the hindrances:

Mental Qualities

"And how does a monk remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves?

[1] "There is the case where a monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances. And how does a monk remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances? There is the case where, there being sensual desire present within, a monk discerns that 'There is sensual desire present within me.' Or, there being no sensual desire present within, he discerns that 'There is no sensual desire present within me.' He discerns how there is the arising of unarisen sensual desire. And he discerns how there is the abandoning of sensual desire once it has arisen. And he discerns how there is no future arising of sensual desire that has been abandoned. (The same formula is repeated for the remaining hindrances: ill will, sloth & drowsiness, restlessness & anxiety, and uncertainty.)


I know what you are getting at in that there is no direct instruction as in "abandon sensual desire!" etc, but maybe it's assumed that we already know that this needs to be done. It seems to be implied here, in any case (afaics), by ending with "...that has been abandoned".

:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by tiltbillings »

manasikara wrote:I know what you are getting at in that there is no direct instruction as in "abandon sensual desire!" etc, but maybe it's assumed that we already know that this needs to be done. It seems to be implied here, in any case (afaics), by ending with "...that has been abandoned".

:anjali:
Have you read the above PDF?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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ground
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by ground »

dhamma follower wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Dmytro wrote:Indeed, sati in the context of satipatthana is not concerned with recalling past events. It is concerned with remembering to abandon what is uskillful and developing what is skillful - the point which is traditionally misunderstood in the Western Buddhism.
I can't help but this seems to be a complete misrepresentation of the remembrance aspect of sati.
The remembrance aspect is exhaustively described in the satipatthana sutta and there is no need to fabricate additional "remembrances".
How could there be sati with reference to the 4 "foundations" without remembering what one has learned about these (the body, feelings, mind, dhammas) before? One has to remember in order to practice according to the satipatthana sutta.
How could there be contemplation of dhammas in terms of the five hindrances, the five clinging aggregates, in terms of the six internal and external sense spheres, the awakening factors, the noble truths if one does not remember what one has learned about the five hindrances, the five clinging aggregates, the six internal and external sense spheres, the awakening factors, the noble truths? There cannot be "contemplation in terms of" without having learned before and remembering the learned. Without remembering there could be just contemplation without any discerning contexts.

Kind regards
Hi TMingyur,

In my understanding, there are things remembered by sanna, and others by sati.
For exemple, as I read your name, sanna was remembering the letters constituing it, while sati remembers "seing is happening".

So all the concepts mentioned in the suttas are remembered by sanna as one reads them, while sati remembers what is happening now, whether it is walking, standing, feeling, thinking etc...

Memory of the concepts will help much, though, before real sati actually arises.

Regards,
Well, let's see what B. Analayo has to say about this:
The noun Sati is related to the verb sarati, to remember. Sati in the sense of memory occurs on several occasions in the discourses and also in the standard definition given in the Abhidamma and the commentaries. This remembrance aspect of sati is personified by the Buddha's disciple most eminent in sati, Ananda, who is credited with the almost incredible feat of recalling all the discourses spoken by the Buddha. Chapter III.2, page 46
This shall suffice for the moment.

Your "seing is happening" may be another aspect of sati but to me it seems to be more related to the instructions given to Bahiya which in comparison to the instructions given by the satipatthana may be more "advanced" however it is the satipatthana sutta commentary by B. Analayo that is the topic of this thread.

Let's take for example contemplation of dhammas in two contexts.
What is the context of "seing is happening"? It may be the context of "the contemplation of dhammas in terms of the five clinging aggregates" or the context of "the contemplation of dhammas in terms of the six internal and external sense spheres". It is exactly the contexts suggested in the satipatthana sutta that are specific for satipatthana. And these contexts suggest the sati aspect as remembrance of the Buddha's teachings in terms of "the five clinging aggregates" and in terms of "the six internal and external sense spheres".

So to elaborate further (using computer terminology alluding to "not clinging to anything in the world"):
1. "the contemplation of dhammas in terms of the five clinging aggregates"
After mind has been booted with the operating system Khandha-samyutta the "gap" between past and future is scanned and patterns are recognized according to the meanings of the Khandha-samyutta.
2. "the contemplation of dhammas in terms of the six internal and external sense spheres"
After mind has been booted with the operating system Salayatana-samyutta the "gap" between past and future is scanned and patterns are recognized according to the meanings of Salayatana-samyutta.


Kind regards
dhamma follower
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by dhamma follower »

TMingyur wrote:
Well, let's see what B. Analayo has to say about this:
The noun Sati is related to the verb sarati, to remember. Sati in the sense of memory occurs on several occasions in the discourses and also in the standard definition given in the Abhidamma and the commentaries. This remembrance aspect of sati is personified by the Buddha's disciple most eminent in sati, Ananda, who is credited with the almost incredible feat of recalling all the discourses spoken by the Buddha. Chapter III.2, page 46
This shall suffice for the moment.
While the aspect of remembrance of sati is a general consensus and that I wholeheartedly agree with, equating sati with memory purely in the common sense (that I call memory of sanna) is Ven Analayo's own opinion, that I disagree with.

The Buddha explained about sati in satipathanna in such a clear way, He listed all the objects of sati, no where he mentioned something that can be close to " remembering the contents of what someone has said", and it is also obvious that He was talking about sati of what is occuring at this very moment, no where he said to remember what has happened in the past.

Here is an harsardous example, because they abound:

"When the mind is restricted, he discerns that the mind is restricted. When the mind is scattered, he discerns that the mind is scattered. When the mind is enlarged, he discerns that the mind is enlarged. When the mind is not enlarged, he discerns that the mind is not enlarged. When the mind is surpassed, he discerns that the mind is surpassed. When the mind is unsurpassed, he discerns that the mind is unsurpassed. When the mind is concentrated, he discerns that the mind is concentrated. When the mind is not concentrated, he discerns that the mind is not concentrated. When the mind is released, he discerns that the mind is released. When the mind is not released, he discerns that the mind is not released."

And here is where sanna is the object of sati, making a clear line between the two:

"Perception of forms... Perception of sounds... Perception of smells... Perception of tastes... Perception of tactile sensations... Perception of ideas..."

It is precisely this distinction between sanna and sati that the former keeps us in samsara while the later gets us out of there. Sanna remembers things that are useful for life but when we take them to be inherently true reality, we are damned to suffer. Sati remembers what should be remembered, meaning the working of the five khandas, which leads to the understanding of their true nature.

At the beginning, their difference is so subtle that it is not easy to distinguish the two, only when sanna becomes the object of sati that it becomes clear.

We can remark that the order of the objects of sati mentioned in the sutta goes from grosser to subtler, I think it also reflects the gradual increase in strength of sati: at the beginning, a lot of concepts are involved : "I", "walking", "sitting"... and towards the end, only basic elements are mentioned, finally culminating in the Four Noble Truth and the Eight Noble fold Paths, Nibbana.

Regards,
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daverupa
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by daverupa »

dhamma follower wrote:The Buddha explained about sati in satipathanna in such a clear way, he listed all the objects of sati, no where he mentioned something that can be close to " remembering the contents what of some has said", and it is also obvious that He was talking about sati of what is occuring at this very moment, no where he said to remember what has happened in the past.
SN 48.10 wrote:"And what is the faculty of mindfulness? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. He remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called the faculty of mindfulness.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by tiltbillings »

dhamma follower wrote: While the aspect of remembrance of sati is a general consensus and that I wholeheartedly agree with, equating sati with memory purely in the common sense (that I call memory of sanna) is Ven Analayo's own opinion, that I disagree with.
?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by tiltbillings »

daverupa wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:The Buddha explained about sati in satipathanna in such a clear way, he listed all the objects of sati, no where he mentioned something that can be close to " remembering the contents what of some has said", and it is also obvious that He was talking about sati of what is occuring at this very moment, no where he said to remember what has happened in the past.
SN 48.10 wrote:"And what is the faculty of mindfulness? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. He remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called the faculty of mindfulness.
And this text is telling us what?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:And this text is telling us what?
That you're both right, and are only wrong if you consider the other to be wrong, as that would be to exclude some of the function or consequence of sati.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:And this text is telling us what?
That you're both right, and are only wrong if you consider the other to be wrong, as that would be to exclude some of the function or consequence of sati.

Metta,
Retro. :)
How does the text in question relate to what Ven Analayo's has said. It has been used by other to try to beat him up, but I have yet to see how. What daverupa means here is as clear as mud.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
daverupa
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by daverupa »

tiltbillings wrote:What daverupa means here is as clear as mud.
When dhamma follower said
dhamma follower wrote:The Buddha explained about sati in satipathanna in such a clear way, he listed all the objects of sati,
this was correct, and when dhamma follower said
dhamma follower wrote:no where he mentioned something that can be close to " remembering the contents what of some has said", and it is also obvious that He was talking about sati of what is occuring at this very moment, no where he said to remember what has happened in the past.
this was incorrect.

This is shown by what I quoted; the underlined portion shows how the latter component was incorrect, and the italics show how the former component was correct:
SN 48.10 wrote:"And what is the faculty of mindfulness? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. He remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called the faculty of mindfulness.
This wasn't apparent?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Nyana
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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by Nyana »

A couple of definitions from the Pāli texts may help inform the discussion. The Dhammasaṅgaṇī offers the following:
  • The mindfulness which on that occasion is recollecting, calling back to mind; the mindfulness which is remembering, bearing in mind the opposite of superficiality and of obliviousness; mindfulness as faculty, mindfulness as power, right mindfulness.
The Milindapañha explains sati as follows:
  • “What, Nāgasena, is the characteristic mark of mindfulness?”

    “Noting and keeping in mind. As mindfulness springs up in the mind of the recluse, he repeatedly notes the wholesome and unwholesome, blameless and blameworthy, insignificant and important, dark and light qualities and those that resemble them thinking, ‘These are the four foundations of mindfulness, these the four right efforts, these the four bases of success, these the five controlling faculties, these the five moral powers, these the seven factors of enlightenment, these are the eight factors of the noble path, this is serenity, this insight, this vision and this freedom.’ Thus does he cultivate those qualities that are desirable and shun those that should be avoided.”...

    “How is keeping in mind a mark of mindfulness?”

    “As mindfulness springs up in the mind, he searches out the categories of good qualities and their opposites thinking, ‘Such and such qualities are beneficial and such are harmful’. Thus does he make what is unwholesome in himself disappear and maintain what is good.”
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