Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by DNS »

Gomrich wrote:Rather than teaching Buddhism to the indigenous people of their host countries, they mainly run cultural centres for the Buddhist immigrants from their countries of origin, centres which indeed operate largely in Sinhalese, Burmese, Thai, etc., not in the language of the country where the missions operate.
A point that I don't believe has been made yet by Gombrich or another poster here yet, is that of logistics.

At many temples in the West, there is not enough support from 'indigenous' people of the host countries yet. Many temples would have probably closed down if they only relied on running meditation programs for spreading Dhamma and ignored the needs of their immigrant communities. I remember one monk telling me once that the donations were $xxx (well over $100) amount of funds from a traditional poya chanting day (attended by ethnic Buddhists only) and then on another day when he led a meditation class which included instruction and Dhamma talks (attended by convert Buddhists only), the collection-dana bowl from the group of 'indigenous' convert Buddhists was only $2. Setting aside the possible greed factor for now, there are real expenses in running a temple which includes utilities, repairs, etc. and $2 is not going to pay the bills.

The convert Buddhists need to seek instruction from the monks as has been mentioned earlier and they also need to assist in creating community. Often those attending programs are those between 25 to 45 years old with no kids. There needs to be more family oriented programs to kick-start the feeling of community and not just a place for some meditation fix and then back to their 'non-Buddhist' worlds when the contemplative programs are finished. My experience has been that the monks are very receptive to Western-born Buddhists attending their functions and to organize meditation programs at the 'ethnic' temples. Sometimes the programs do not last too long due to lack of participation, from both Buddhist born and convert Buddhists. When there is more of a sense of community, the convert Buddhists might participate on a much more regular basis, including the participation in regular dana to keep the temple going and not just payment for when they hear a 'good' Dhamma talk or program.

My point is not to place blame or to generalize any group (apologies if I have inadvertently done so), but just to say that there can be more effort made among all Buddhists, regardless of background to produce more community, which will also help spread the Dhamma to those interested.
LastLegend
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by LastLegend »

Maybe, maybe not...all the time actions, and thoughts, get lumped into a single category of, or universal to, human behavior, and that just isn't so...(in my experience)...[
You are right. It may or may not arise. But I am talking about the mental habitual reactions that we have been used to for so long due to karma, and this can arise anytime when the conditions are right if we have not completely got rid of it.
nathan
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by nathan »

"If an individual, whether monk, nun or layman of either sex, has decided to opt out of society and to lead a secluded life, we cannot demand that they make pronouncements on public affairs – pronouncements to which in any case few people would listen."

page 7, paragraph 2

-I find this proposal acceptable and otherwise decline to comment.
:anjali:
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by mikenz66 »

Truly excellent post, David, that goes to the heart of what it would require to have real Buddhist community in the West. I particularly liked your discussion of community.
David N. Snyder wrote: The convert Buddhists need to seek instruction from the monks as has been mentioned earlier and they also need to assist in creating community. Often those attending programs are those between 25 to 45 years old with no kids. There needs to be more family oriented programs to kick-start the feeling of community and not just a place for some meditation fix and then back to their 'non-Buddhist' worlds when the contemplative programs are finished. My experience has been that the monks are very receptive to Western-born Buddhists attending their functions and to organize meditation programs at the 'ethnic' temples. Sometimes the programs do not last too long due to lack of participation, from both Buddhist born and convert Buddhists. When there is more of a sense of community, the convert Buddhists might participate on a much more regular basis, including the participation in regular dana to keep the temple going and not just payment for when they hear a 'good' Dhamma talk or program.
I find this sense of community vital in maintaining my practice, and it was a key reason for me becoming Buddhist. A sense of community is not "cultural baggage", it is an uplifting feeling of shared purpose.

:anjali:
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isle21self
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by isle21self »

I don't think we can condemn Thai monks for not wanting to have much contact with women as mysoginistic or even close. There are other reasons concerning the Thai Sangha that we can bring up that reflect a mysoginistic nature especially concerning the refusal to allow any leeway for Bhikkunis. The simple act of this cloth however, is not something we can say has anything to do with this. It might, but perhaps it might not. The exact mindset for these monks who have been celibate for a long time isn't something we can know, but trying to avoid mental temptation of any kind might be a top priority for them. It may also be done out of habit and ritual, but the lessened contact may have the same effect even if the intention wasn't the same. Even if one had no intention of desires arising in the mind, but eventually they came about a problem would arise for that individual wouldn't it?

I think Tilt's point about not forgetting the cultural context and chownah's on imperialism does have some significant part to play in this. As much as we might wish to think that we have common desire in that we are all Buddhist we don't. The purpose of Buddha Dhamma as given by the Buddha is for the benefit of all beings so that they can escape the rounds of cyclic rebirth that is Samasara. If you think even half of the World's Buddhist want this then you are grossly mistaken. Many simply do not care for such things. There is proof of this as many of Ajahn Chah's pupils often state how many Thais believed Ajahn Chah to be an arahat, but many of these same people would not ask for a dhamma teaching on how to become an arahat. Buddhism in Asia mostly consists of rites and rituals that are very tied into the local culture. It may not be the Buddhism you think is the real deal, but it is a living religion of some sort that those people like being a part of. To tell these people their Buddhism is wrong and isn't the teaching of the Buddha would be something they find very insulting no different than prostelytizing to Christians.
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by daverupa »

isle21self wrote:Buddhism in Asia mostly consists of rites and rituals that are very tied into the local culture. It may not be the Buddhism you think is the real deal, but it is a living religion of some sort that those people like being a part of. To tell these people their Buddhism is wrong and isn't the teaching of the Buddha would be something they find very insulting no different than prostelytizing to Christians.
I guess the question would be whether these cultural components deserve to be replicated in the name of the Dhamma. The various Catholic Rites are an example of how Buddhism might proceed in this context...
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by Raksha »

(Another old thread recycled, but again I've only just read it.)
Professor Gombrich is very liberal and his points are all valid. Apart from his separation of ritual and ethical intention which is no more than a convenient academic categorisation.'...the point of ritual lies in doing, not in intending. Therefore ritual can have no moral or spiritual value.' Ritual without some intention is impossible, and indeed religious rituals could be argued to be simply a vehicle for intention. In this way they can be imbued with moral and spiritual value, in common with all actions.
Aside from this rather nonsensical theory Professor Gombrich has also made one or two more concrete errors. Firstly, in his interpretation of the role of the Sangha in worldly affairs. 'I put it to you that it is their duty to advise political leaders on the moral principles which must guide how they govern, and even how they make war, if that cannot be avoided. Why should Buddhist principles, under that name, be kept out of government and politics? Buddhism is not some kind of frivolous game or pastime: it is there to be applied to the whole of life.' This view is essentially that of post-Christian Europe with its long history of politicised religion. Conversely in Asia, monks should not be involved in politics, even in an advisory capacity. In this argument he is conflating the very different paths of laypeople and monks. The former may apply the Dhamma as best they can to their worldly lives, whereas the latter must renounce the world entirely.
Secondly, in his comments on menstruation and female impurity he appears to distort his own reasoning,'...the Buddha ignored menstruation as irrelevant to his teaching.' In the same paragraph he concludes, '...for Buddhism, female impurity does not exist – as it did not for the Buddha.' Regardless of the merits of his argument, it is clear that ignoring and denying are not the same thing.
Lastly, on the subject of the Bhikkhuni lineage he writes, 'What does it matter that the continuity of the ordination ritual has been interrupted?'. This is a continuation of his proposition that ritual and intention are somehow separate. In fact, the cumulative volition of a spiritual lineage does matter in the same way that a snowball which has been rolling down a mountainside for a long time has more substance than one newly-made.
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