Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

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daverupa
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Postby daverupa » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:40 pm


chownah
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Postby chownah » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:23 am

daverupa,
Sincere thanks for presenting some interesting historical information about ordination of Bhikkhunis. What you have shown is that it seems that those people who control the policies of the Sangha have done their best to bar the ordination of Bhikkhunis. This is not misogyny....as far as I know the reasons which those barring the ordination of Bhikkhunis have given for wanting to bar the ordination of Bhikkhunis has been that it is not possible to do so from the standpoint of what the Buddha taught .......that the rules which were formulated by the Buddha and which have been passed down through the "lineage" of Bhikkhus and the "lineage" of Bhikkunis does not allow for ordination as the requirements can no longer be met.....this is a policy matter and is directed at rules....it is not directed at women that I can see....maybe you can produce something which seems to be directed at women and not rules.
chownah
P.S. I want to add that in my view it is important to not use the false argument of misogyny in attacking the Bhikkhuni ordination issue in that if misogyny is not the problem then certainly accusations of it will not solve the problem but probalby just end up in a witch hunt....my view is that there is alot of "lineage worship" going on which is something which In my view the Buddha did not intend as evidenced by his never having referred to a "lineage" of monks at all as far as I have been able to determine.........and also as evidenced by the Buddha's declaration that he is of the "lineage of Noble Ones".......
chownah

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daverupa
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Postby daverupa » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:03 am


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beeblebrox
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Postby beeblebrox » Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:45 pm


LastLegend
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Postby LastLegend » Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:44 pm

From my understanding, there exists no female monks in Cambodian Theravada tradition in Vietnam. Note that there is also Vietnamese Theravada tradition which is constituted of mostly ethnic Vietnamese while the Cambodian Theravada tradition is constituted of ethnic Cambodians. Vietnam has many people from different ethnic backgrounds such as Hmongs, Chinese, Cambodians, ethnic tribes, etc.

And Theravadin monks do follow strict Vinaya rules. Not directly looking at women or touching women is like one of those rules.
Last edited by LastLegend on Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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daverupa
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Postby daverupa » Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:48 pm


LastLegend
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Postby LastLegend » Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:55 pm


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daverupa
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Postby daverupa » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:54 pm


LastLegend
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Postby LastLegend » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:05 pm

ok point taken.

however, prevention or caution is also important as a certain consciousness arises when there is a certain contact with the object of that consciousness.

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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Postby appicchato » Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:58 am


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David N. Snyder
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Postby David N. Snyder » Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:21 am

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LastLegend
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Postby LastLegend » Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:43 am


nathan
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Postby nathan » Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:38 am

"If an individual, whether monk, nun or layman of either sex, has decided to opt out of society and to lead a secluded life, we cannot demand that they make pronouncements on public affairs – pronouncements to which in any case few people would listen."

page 7, paragraph 2

-I find this proposal acceptable and otherwise decline to comment.
:anjali:
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:39 am


isle21self
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Postby isle21self » Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:43 pm

I don't think we can condemn Thai monks for not wanting to have much contact with women as mysoginistic or even close. There are other reasons concerning the Thai Sangha that we can bring up that reflect a mysoginistic nature especially concerning the refusal to allow any leeway for Bhikkunis. The simple act of this cloth however, is not something we can say has anything to do with this. It might, but perhaps it might not. The exact mindset for these monks who have been celibate for a long time isn't something we can know, but trying to avoid mental temptation of any kind might be a top priority for them. It may also be done out of habit and ritual, but the lessened contact may have the same effect even if the intention wasn't the same. Even if one had no intention of desires arising in the mind, but eventually they came about a problem would arise for that individual wouldn't it?

I think Tilt's point about not forgetting the cultural context and chownah's on imperialism does have some significant part to play in this. As much as we might wish to think that we have common desire in that we are all Buddhist we don't. The purpose of Buddha Dhamma as given by the Buddha is for the benefit of all beings so that they can escape the rounds of cyclic rebirth that is Samasara. If you think even half of the World's Buddhist want this then you are grossly mistaken. Many simply do not care for such things. There is proof of this as many of Ajahn Chah's pupils often state how many Thais believed Ajahn Chah to be an arahat, but many of these same people would not ask for a dhamma teaching on how to become an arahat. Buddhism in Asia mostly consists of rites and rituals that are very tied into the local culture. It may not be the Buddhism you think is the real deal, but it is a living religion of some sort that those people like being a part of. To tell these people their Buddhism is wrong and isn't the teaching of the Buddha would be something they find very insulting no different than prostelytizing to Christians.

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daverupa
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Postby daverupa » Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:32 pm


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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Postby Raksha » Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:59 am

(Another old thread recycled, but again I've only just read it.)
Professor Gombrich is very liberal and his points are all valid. Apart from his separation of ritual and ethical intention which is no more than a convenient academic categorisation.'...the point of ritual lies in doing, not in intending. Therefore ritual can have no moral or spiritual value.' Ritual without some intention is impossible, and indeed religious rituals could be argued to be simply a vehicle for intention. In this way they can be imbued with moral and spiritual value, in common with all actions.
Aside from this rather nonsensical theory Professor Gombrich has also made one or two more concrete errors. Firstly, in his interpretation of the role of the Sangha in worldly affairs. 'I put it to you that it is their duty to advise political leaders on the moral principles which must guide how they govern, and even how they make war, if that cannot be avoided. Why should Buddhist principles, under that name, be kept out of government and politics? Buddhism is not some kind of frivolous game or pastime: it is there to be applied to the whole of life.' This view is essentially that of post-Christian Europe with its long history of politicised religion. Conversely in Asia, monks should not be involved in politics, even in an advisory capacity. In this argument he is conflating the very different paths of laypeople and monks. The former may apply the Dhamma as best they can to their worldly lives, whereas the latter must renounce the world entirely.
Secondly, in his comments on menstruation and female impurity he appears to distort his own reasoning,'...the Buddha ignored menstruation as irrelevant to his teaching.' In the same paragraph he concludes, '...for Buddhism, female impurity does not exist – as it did not for the Buddha.' Regardless of the merits of his argument, it is clear that ignoring and denying are not the same thing.
Lastly, on the subject of the Bhikkhuni lineage he writes, 'What does it matter that the continuity of the ordination ritual has been interrupted?'. This is a continuation of his proposition that ritual and intention are somehow separate. In fact, the cumulative volition of a spiritual lineage does matter in the same way that a snowball which has been rolling down a mountainside for a long time has more substance than one newly-made.


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