Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

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tiltbillings
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:You really do not get it. The issue is not the Buddha-word. It is,rather, the Western arrogance that (some)Westerners think they have it all figured out well enough to tell the Thais, Burmese and others how do it.
So we have the discussion framed as Tiltbillings would have it, or it's Western arrogance, is it?

Frankly, I'm quite happy for it to be about the Buddha-word... about the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha.

If you'd rather it be about "Thais", "Burmese", "Western(ers)" etc. then you may view things in such worldly ways, with such worldly delineations if you like.

:buddha1:

Metta,
Retro. :)
I am responding to your grossly taking Mike's comment out of context. Ben has neatly stated Mikes point:

I understand. However, I think Mike's experience of learning Dhamma from wats in New Zealand is instructive. I think that perhaps its also our responsibility as westerners in the west to request Dhamma from Sri Lankan, Thai, Cambodian or Burmese branch wats. Maybe then when a need has been demonstrated that Dhamma will be presented in language other than Thai, Sri Lankan, Cambodian or Burmese. We have a part too in the dissemination of the Dhamma - even by asking for Dhamma in English (or other western language).
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,

Right - householders requesting bhikkhus to teach the Dhamma.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

Right - householders requesting bhikkhus to teach the Dhamma.

Metta,
Retro. :)
You still don't get it, but C'est la vie.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,

That's cool - I'm quite comfortable with where my allegiance lies.

:buddha1:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

That's cool - I'm quite comfortable with where my allegiance lies.
That's an eye-roller. As i said, you simply do not get it. It is not a matter of allegiance. It is a matter trying to find common ground in trying to understand and work with other cultures whose response to things can be quite different than Western cultures.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,

Or it's about Buddhavacana and the Triple Gem.

:buddha1:

Frame it as you see fit.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Mr Man
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by Mr Man »

Onward Buddhist soldiars.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

Or it's about Buddhavacana and the Triple Gem.

:buddha1:

Frame it as you see fit.

Metta,
Retro. :)
My goodness. You still do not get it. Of course, it is about communication of the Buddha-word among cultures which have very different patterns of behavior. We cannot expect that Thais act like Steve Irwin in preaching the Dhamma, but we can try to understand the cultural differences and find ways of working with them so that we can all talk effectively with each other, so that the Dhamma can be effectively presented.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:Onward Buddhist soldiars.
Oh, yeah.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:It is a matter trying to find common ground in trying to understand and work with other cultures whose response to things can be quite different than Western cultures.
I don't know where all Dhamma Wheel members live, but I know at least three participants in this topic to date who live in Asia...

So if this isn't about the Triple Gem, which "culture" are we actually dealing with here? The "pilgrim" culture that's excited about Gombrich's challenge and gives it the big thumbs up? The "chownah" culture whose first response was to take umbrage at the English imperialists? The "ven. Appicchato" culture who acknowledges that Gombrich makes a good point but is skeptical it will be heard by those who would do well to hear it? Just as there is no homogenised Western culture, there is no homogenised Asian culture either... we're dealing with people, individuals... many views.

What we do have in common though is our common Buddhist heritage - the Dhamma of the Buddha. That seems the most appropriate medium by which we could be "trying to find common ground". If that involves relinquishing some "comfort", we should not be surprised - the Dhamma does go against the grain, and always has.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by Dan74 »

In my time as a student buddhist society secretary, I recall we asked a number of ethnic monks to come and give a talk. As long as we could provide transport, all obliged. So like others have said, if asked monks do tend to share the Dhamma to the best of their ability, which is more in some cases than others.

Should there be more effort made to reach out to Westerners? Maybe. Some temples are already run off their feet catering to their ethnic community's needs. Others are more on the lazy side.

C'est la vie...

PS. On retro's side of town, I only know of an active Vietnamese temple of Ven Phuoc Tan (where Lawrence Mills (Phra Khantipalo) stayed for some time) who does a lot of work in Vietnamese community but also does things with Westerners. He is more Mahayana though, I believe. On this side of town, there is Dhammasukkha of Ven U Pandita I mentioned earlier who runs classes in English. So things do happen. I am sure there are many more I am not aware of. Of course the quality of the monks and their level of commitment to the Dhamma varies, but so does the quality and commitment of the lay practitioners. ;)
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by Kim OHara »

retrofuturist wrote: ...So if this isn't about the Triple Gem, which "culture" are we actually dealing with here? The "pilgrim" culture that's excited about Gombrich's challenge and gives it the big thumbs up? The "chownah" culture whose first response was to take umbrage at the English imperialists? The "ven. Appicchato" culture who acknowledges that Gombrich makes a good point but is skeptical it will be heard by those who would do well to hear it? Just as there is no homogenised Western culture, there is no homogenised Asian culture either... we're dealing with people, individuals... many views.

What we do have in common though is our common Buddhist heritage - the Dhamma of the Buddha. That seems the most appropriate medium by which we could be "trying to find common ground". If that involves relinquishing some "comfort", we should not be surprised - the Dhamma does go against the grain, and always has.
Hi, Retro, all,
Something that I was going to write in response to Alan earlier to day (but the internet dropped out) seems just as appropriate here:
Kim wrote:'We' is a construct, a figment of the way the language works.
Each of us has attitudes and priorities we share with others, but action can only start with the individual. Each of us should act on his/her beliefs, act in accordance with the dhamma as he/she understands it.
...which is another way of saying it's pointless trying to impose a universal solution on multifarious people; also of saying that it would be far better to go out and talk to the real people we can perhaps share with, rather than setting up a line of imaginary stereotypical strawmen and deciding whether or not they should be knocked over.

Or something like that. :smile:

:namaste:
Kim
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by mikenz66 »

Kim O'Hara wrote: ...which is another way of saying it's pointless trying to impose a universal solution on multifarious people; also of saying that it would be far better to go out and talk to the real people we can perhaps share with, rather than setting up a line of imaginary stereotypical strawmen and deciding whether or not they should be knocked over.
I agree. I think it's better to try find common ground by interacting with, and trying to understand, people on their own terms before rushing to propose solutions to the real or imagined shortcomings of their Dhamma culture...

:anjali:
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: What we do have in common though is our common Buddhist heritage - the Dhamma of the Buddha. That seems the most appropriate medium by which we could be "trying to find common ground". If that involves relinquishing some "comfort", we should not be surprised - the Dhamma does go against the grain, and always has.
On that point, I've found it good exercise to let go of the craving to know what exactly is going on in situations where people are not speaking English... There are positive and negative aspects of all situations...

:anjali:
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by daverupa »

mikenz66 wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote: ...which is another way of saying it's pointless trying to impose a universal solution on multifarious people; also of saying that it would be far better to go out and talk to the real people we can perhaps share with, rather than setting up a line of imaginary stereotypical strawmen and deciding whether or not they should be knocked over.
I agree. I think it's better to try find common ground by interacting with, and trying to understand, people on their own terms before rushing to propose solutions to the real or imagined shortcomings of their Dhamma culture...

:anjali:
Mike
daverupa wrote:It's worth spending quite a bit of time on solving these deep problems; "hopefully things will change" can only occur when people comprise the change, a fact which demands earnest personal engagement.
I conveyed a similar idea earlier, but notice how "impose" and "shortcomings" have made an appearance as part of the argument, when this way of engaging with the topic was never introduced except by those arguing against it.

It seems people see the Gombrich piece as challenging the way ASIAN CULTURE does things; but that's a red herring. It's challenging the way THERAVADAN BUDDHISTS have historically, and up to today, done things. That they have been mostly enmeshed in an Asian culture is purely incidental, and by speaking about these things I do so with Western biases, but as a Buddhist. This is the playing field within which we should communicate, not some culture or emergent tradition.

This incessant nation/culture/etc. talk is precisely the problem.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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