Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

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retrofuturist
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:meet our Western expectations of how things should be done.
Not Western expectations... the Buddha's expectations.

Westerners didn't write the suttas.

:buddha1:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ben
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by Ben »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:meet our Western expectations of how things should be done.
Not Western expectations... the Buddha's expectations.

Westerners didn't write the suttas.

:buddha1:

Metta,
Retro. :)
I wonder, Retro, how is Dhamma Wheel any different to a branch of a Thai Wat in Australia or New Zealand?
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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tiltbillings
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:meet our Western expectations of how things should be done.
Not Western expectations... the Buddha's expectations.
And you now speak for the Buddha? You are still missing the point of what Mike said
Westerners didn't write the suttas.
No they certainly did not, but they certainly do read them through the lenses of their Western Cultural upbringing.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,
Ben wrote:I wonder, Retro, how is Dhamma Wheel any different to a branch of a Thai Wat in Australia or New Zealand?
Perhaps you could explain the rationale behind this rather vague comparison? I don't understand what it's getting at.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:And you now speak for the Buddha?
The Buddha can do that perfectly well himself...
Go ye now, O Bhikkhus, and wander, for the gain of the many, for the welfare of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the good, for the gain, and for the welfare of gods and men, Let not two of you go the same way, Preach, O Bhikkhus, the doctrine which is glorious in the beginning, glorious in the middle, glorious at the end, in the spirit and in the letter; proclaim a consummate, perfect, and pure life of holiness. There are beings whose mental eyes are covered by scarcely any dust, but if the doctrine is not preached to them, they cannot attain salvation. They will understand the doctrine. And I will go also, O Bhikkhus, to Uruvelâ, to Senâninigama, in order to preach the doctrine.'
Source: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe13/sbe1312.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Gombrich wrote:How, then, can Theravāda Buddhism be disseminated? How can it even be saved? I find the answer obvious. We have to return to the Buddha’s teaching. ... Yes; we have to take the Buddha seriously!
Oh these naughty Westerners, placing the Buddha's word above national allegience, local culture and the ways of the world. :roll:
tiltbillings wrote:What is shocking is the expectations that Thais, Burmese and others meet our Western expectations of how things should be done.
:strawman:

Sometimes Buddhavacana is awfully inconvenient to some.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by Ben »

Retro, I think there is some consternation amongst some that wats in the west appear to be accommodating the social needs for certain groups of people.
In which case, is that really any different to Dhamma Wheel? I think that if most members were really honest, the principal reason why members join is to have a sense of community with other Buddhists.
Which is not a bad thing...
"And what is meant by admirable friendship? There is the case where a lay person, in whatever town or village he may dwell, spends time with householders or householders' sons, young or old, who are advanced in virtue. He talks with them, engages them in discussions. He emulates consummate conviction [in the principle of kamma] in those who are consummate in conviction, consummate virtue in those who are consummate in virtue, consummate generosity in those who are consummate in generosity, and consummate discernment in those who are consummate in discernment. This is called admirable friendship."

— AN 8.54

As he was sitting there, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "This is half of the holy life, lord: admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie."

"Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, & colleagues, he can be expected to develop & pursue the noble eightfold path.
— SN 45.2
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,
Ben wrote:Retro, I think there is some consternation amongst some that wats in the west appear to be accommodating the social needs for certain groups of people.
In which case, is that really any different to Dhamma Wheel? I think that if most members were really honest, the principal reason why members join is to have a sense of community with other Buddhists.
Sense of community with other Buddhists... indeed. You hit the nail on the head there - Buddhists and those who may be interested in becoming Buddhist.

That ought to be the criteria - not race, nationality, cultural heritage, the longitude and latitude of the piece of rock you were born on etc.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by tiltbillings »

It would be nice had the Buddhist from directly after the timer of the Buddha's death till now all lived up to the highest standards set by the Buddha, but they certainly did not. We could run through the catalogue of things such as monasteries having slaves, owning land, and whatnot, but here is what Mike said:


Expecting Asian Buddhists to change the way they are organised to cater for Western ideas seems a bit far-fetched to me. If Westerners want their own version of Buddhism it's really up to them to organise it.

If you feel like you have the authority to tell Asian Buddhists how to best live their lives, conduct their affairs and how best understand the Dhamma, go for it, show us how it done. In the mean time, those Westerners who try to understand the Dhamma, both in terms of its historic contexts and by putting it into practice, will be in a better place to try to adapt the Dhamma to Western needs.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:What is shocking is the expectations that Thais, Burmese and others meet our Western expectations of how things should be done.
:strawman:

Sometimes Buddhavacana is awfully inconvenient to some.
The only starwman argument is coming from you and you utter cultural blindness.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:The only starwman argument iows coming from you and you utter cultural blindness.
"Culture" over Buddhavacana. As you like, Tilt.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:The only starwman argument iows coming from you and you utter cultural blindness.
"Culture" over Buddhavacana. As you like, Tilt.

Metta,
Retro. :)
You really do not get it. The issue is not the Buddha-word. It is,rather, the Western arrogance that (some)Westerners think they have it all figured out well enough to tell the Thais, Burmese and others how do it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by Ben »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Ben,
Ben wrote:Retro, I think there is some consternation amongst some that wats in the west appear to be accommodating the social needs for certain groups of people.
In which case, is that really any different to Dhamma Wheel? I think that if most members were really honest, the principal reason why members join is to have a sense of community with other Buddhists.
Sense of community with other Buddhists... indeed. You hit the nail on the head there - Buddhists and those who may be interested in becoming Buddhist.

That ought to be the criteria - not race, nationality, cultural heritage, the longitude and latitude of the piece of rock you were born on etc.

Metta,
Retro. :)
I understand. However, I think Mike's experience of learning Dhamma from wats in New Zealand is instructive. I think that perhaps its also our responsibility as westerners in the west to request Dhamma from Sri Lankan, Thai, Cambodian or Burmese branch wats. Maybe then when a need has been demonstrated that Dhamma will be presented in language other than Thai, Sri Lankan, Cambodian or Burmese. We have a part too in the dissemination of the Dhamma - even by asking for Dhamma in English (or other western language).
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,
Ben wrote:I understand. However, I think Mike's experience of learning Dhamma from wats in New Zealand is instructive. I think that perhaps its also our responsibility as westerners in the west to request Dhamma from Sri Lankan, Thai, Cambodian or Burmese branch wats. Maybe then when a need has been demonstrated that Dhamma will be presented in language other than Thai, Sri Lankan, Cambodian or Burmese. We have a part too in the dissemination of the Dhamma - even by asking for Dhamma in English (or other western language).
Agreed.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by tiltbillings »

Ben wrote: I understand. However, I think Mike's experience of learning Dhamma from wats in New Zealand is instructive. I think that perhaps its also our responsibility as westerners in the west to request Dhamma from Sri Lankan, Thai, Cambodian or Burmese branch wats. Maybe then when a need has been demonstrated that Dhamma will be presented in language other than Thai, Sri Lankan, Cambodian or Burmese. We have a part too in the dissemination of the Dhamma - even by asking for Dhamma in English (or other western language).
kind regards,

Ben
Yes. This is cultural stuff that needs to be understood and worked with. We cannot just tell it to go away or tell the Thais, etc,to act like us.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:You really do not get it. The issue is not the Buddha-word. It is,rather, the Western arrogance that (some)Westerners think they have it all figured out well enough to tell the Thais, Burmese and others how do it.
So we have the discussion framed as Tiltbillings would have it, or it's Western arrogance, is it?

Frankly, I'm quite happy for it to be about the Buddha-word... about the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha.

If you'd rather it be about "Thais", "Burmese", "Western(ers)" etc. then you may view things in such worldly ways, with such worldly delineations if you like.

:buddha1:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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