Not Western expectations... the Buddha's expectations.tiltbillings wrote:meet our Western expectations of how things should be done.
Westerners didn't write the suttas.
Metta,
Retro.
Not Western expectations... the Buddha's expectations.tiltbillings wrote:meet our Western expectations of how things should be done.
I wonder, Retro, how is Dhamma Wheel any different to a branch of a Thai Wat in Australia or New Zealand?retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
Not Western expectations... the Buddha's expectations.tiltbillings wrote:meet our Western expectations of how things should be done.
Westerners didn't write the suttas.
Metta,
Retro.
And you now speak for the Buddha? You are still missing the point of what Mike saidretrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
Not Western expectations... the Buddha's expectations.tiltbillings wrote:meet our Western expectations of how things should be done.
No they certainly did not, but they certainly do read them through the lenses of their Western Cultural upbringing.Westerners didn't write the suttas.
Perhaps you could explain the rationale behind this rather vague comparison? I don't understand what it's getting at.Ben wrote:I wonder, Retro, how is Dhamma Wheel any different to a branch of a Thai Wat in Australia or New Zealand?
The Buddha can do that perfectly well himself...tiltbillings wrote:And you now speak for the Buddha?
Source: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe13/sbe1312.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Go ye now, O Bhikkhus, and wander, for the gain of the many, for the welfare of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the good, for the gain, and for the welfare of gods and men, Let not two of you go the same way, Preach, O Bhikkhus, the doctrine which is glorious in the beginning, glorious in the middle, glorious at the end, in the spirit and in the letter; proclaim a consummate, perfect, and pure life of holiness. There are beings whose mental eyes are covered by scarcely any dust, but if the doctrine is not preached to them, they cannot attain salvation. They will understand the doctrine. And I will go also, O Bhikkhus, to Uruvelâ, to Senâninigama, in order to preach the doctrine.'
Oh these naughty Westerners, placing the Buddha's word above national allegience, local culture and the ways of the world.Gombrich wrote:How, then, can Theravāda Buddhism be disseminated? How can it even be saved? I find the answer obvious. We have to return to the Buddha’s teaching. ... Yes; we have to take the Buddha seriously!
tiltbillings wrote:What is shocking is the expectations that Thais, Burmese and others meet our Western expectations of how things should be done.
kind regards,"And what is meant by admirable friendship? There is the case where a lay person, in whatever town or village he may dwell, spends time with householders or householders' sons, young or old, who are advanced in virtue. He talks with them, engages them in discussions. He emulates consummate conviction [in the principle of kamma] in those who are consummate in conviction, consummate virtue in those who are consummate in virtue, consummate generosity in those who are consummate in generosity, and consummate discernment in those who are consummate in discernment. This is called admirable friendship."
— AN 8.54
As he was sitting there, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "This is half of the holy life, lord: admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie."
"Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, & colleagues, he can be expected to develop & pursue the noble eightfold path.
— SN 45.2
Sense of community with other Buddhists... indeed. You hit the nail on the head there - Buddhists and those who may be interested in becoming Buddhist.Ben wrote:Retro, I think there is some consternation amongst some that wats in the west appear to be accommodating the social needs for certain groups of people.
In which case, is that really any different to Dhamma Wheel? I think that if most members were really honest, the principal reason why members join is to have a sense of community with other Buddhists.
The only starwman argument is coming from you and you utter cultural blindness.retrofuturist wrote:tiltbillings wrote:What is shocking is the expectations that Thais, Burmese and others meet our Western expectations of how things should be done.
Sometimes Buddhavacana is awfully inconvenient to some.
"Culture" over Buddhavacana. As you like, Tilt.tiltbillings wrote:The only starwman argument iows coming from you and you utter cultural blindness.
You really do not get it. The issue is not the Buddha-word. It is,rather, the Western arrogance that (some)Westerners think they have it all figured out well enough to tell the Thais, Burmese and others how do it.retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
"Culture" over Buddhavacana. As you like, Tilt.tiltbillings wrote:The only starwman argument iows coming from you and you utter cultural blindness.
Metta,
Retro.
I understand. However, I think Mike's experience of learning Dhamma from wats in New Zealand is instructive. I think that perhaps its also our responsibility as westerners in the west to request Dhamma from Sri Lankan, Thai, Cambodian or Burmese branch wats. Maybe then when a need has been demonstrated that Dhamma will be presented in language other than Thai, Sri Lankan, Cambodian or Burmese. We have a part too in the dissemination of the Dhamma - even by asking for Dhamma in English (or other western language).retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Ben,
Sense of community with other Buddhists... indeed. You hit the nail on the head there - Buddhists and those who may be interested in becoming Buddhist.Ben wrote:Retro, I think there is some consternation amongst some that wats in the west appear to be accommodating the social needs for certain groups of people.
In which case, is that really any different to Dhamma Wheel? I think that if most members were really honest, the principal reason why members join is to have a sense of community with other Buddhists.
That ought to be the criteria - not race, nationality, cultural heritage, the longitude and latitude of the piece of rock you were born on etc.
Metta,
Retro.
Agreed.Ben wrote:I understand. However, I think Mike's experience of learning Dhamma from wats in New Zealand is instructive. I think that perhaps its also our responsibility as westerners in the west to request Dhamma from Sri Lankan, Thai, Cambodian or Burmese branch wats. Maybe then when a need has been demonstrated that Dhamma will be presented in language other than Thai, Sri Lankan, Cambodian or Burmese. We have a part too in the dissemination of the Dhamma - even by asking for Dhamma in English (or other western language).
Yes. This is cultural stuff that needs to be understood and worked with. We cannot just tell it to go away or tell the Thais, etc,to act like us.Ben wrote: I understand. However, I think Mike's experience of learning Dhamma from wats in New Zealand is instructive. I think that perhaps its also our responsibility as westerners in the west to request Dhamma from Sri Lankan, Thai, Cambodian or Burmese branch wats. Maybe then when a need has been demonstrated that Dhamma will be presented in language other than Thai, Sri Lankan, Cambodian or Burmese. We have a part too in the dissemination of the Dhamma - even by asking for Dhamma in English (or other western language).
kind regards,
Ben
So we have the discussion framed as Tiltbillings would have it, or it's Western arrogance, is it?tiltbillings wrote:You really do not get it. The issue is not the Buddha-word. It is,rather, the Western arrogance that (some)Westerners think they have it all figured out well enough to tell the Thais, Burmese and others how do it.