Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ben
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Re: A talk by R. Gombrich

Post by Ben »

Hi Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Actually, I am sorry I referenced that talk. What is of more intertest is the websit itself. Lots of interesting things there for those who find lots of interesting things interesting.
Indeed it is. I just downloaded the paper: mindfulness, depression and modes of mind for my wife.
kind regards,

Ben
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chownah
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Re: A talk by R. Gombrich

Post by chownah »

I have reread the article and think that my previous post was too harsh in saying that there was not enough substance.....infact he broaches alot of important issues and although I do not agree with all that he said concerning all of them I think it is good that he raised those issues and I'm sure that it did take a bit of courage to say those things to those in attendance....perhaps he actually got some relief in knowing (if he knew) that most there would not understand him. I think in my previous post I did not properly take into account the audience to which he was speaking. It may very well be that his attempts to characterize the attitudes of the majority of Buddhists was actually a way to not be pointing the finger of blame too directly at any group of people....and it is his statements about the attitudes of the majority of buddhists that I feel are grossly wrong at least in my experience of Thai Buddhists.....everything that I have seen of Thai Buddhists (which is actually based on a pitifull small percentage of the population) indicates that they think that every country has its own style of Buddhism and that this is just fine and good.....I think that most Thai people would say that Lao Buddhism is the best thing for Lao people and Burmese Buddhism is the best thing for Burmese people and Thai Buddhism is the best thing for Thai people....Thai people are by and large quite nationalistic but they do not seem to extend this to Buddhism....again my expereince is based on a very tiny tiny percent of the population and I do not claim to have the knowledge to make a declaration about the majority of Thai people....I don't think that Gombrich has the knowledge either but I very well could be wrong.

Anyway if apologies are in order for my previous harshness then consider apologies as being offered all around.
chownah
Richard
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by Richard »

I have read the lecture, and think Gombrich makes a good point when he says that Thai and other Theravada temples in the West function primarily as ethnic cultural centers, and don't really make an effort to introduce Theravada to peoples around the world. As he says in his most recent book, Gombrich is not actually a practicing Buddhist, but he is a sympathetic scholar who wants people to live up to their religious principles. As someone noted above, the Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies has good website with a number of interesting papers worth reading.
Richard
daverupa
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Re: A talk by R. Gombrich

Post by daverupa »

appicchato wrote:so I asked myself: what's the point?...virtually no one in attendance would ever know what he was saying, or why...
Well, but it's on the internet now, and that's a primary source for those with a burgeoning interest in the Dhamma, as well as long-term practitioners. I think this speech trumps The Broken Buddha by couching the key problem - parochial nationalism - amidst very important modern ethical and moral issues (women, bhikkhunis, political murder, war, etc.).

These are essential points, worth addressing with great tenacity.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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appicchato
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Re: A talk by R. Gombrich

Post by appicchato »

daverupa wrote:
appicchato wrote:so I asked myself: what's the point?...virtually no one in attendance would ever know what he was saying, or why...
Well, but it's on the internet now, and that's a primary source for those with a burgeoning interest in the Dhamma, as well as long-term practitioners.

Beg to differ but, for those who wield the power (in the primarily Buddhist countries (already mentioned)), and the real ability to change the status quo, it's not...there's a large chasm beween the Eastern and Western 'kingpins'...hopefully things will change, sooner rather than later...
daverupa
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Re: A talk by R. Gombrich

Post by daverupa »

appicchato wrote:
daverupa wrote:
appicchato wrote:so I asked myself: what's the point?...virtually no one in attendance would ever know what he was saying, or why...
Well, but it's on the internet now, and that's a primary source for those with a burgeoning interest in the Dhamma, as well as long-term practitioners.

Beg to differ but, for those who wield the power (in the primarily Buddhist countries (already mentioned)), and the real ability to change the status quo, it's not...there's a large chasm beween the Eastern and Western 'kingpins'...hopefully things will change, sooner rather than later...
I think that "the real ability to change the status quo" is of course in the hands of the fourfold Sangha. (Thinking here how most of the Vinaya was formed.) I can understand the massive inertia here, but stranger things have happened. It's worth spending quite a bit of time on solving these deep problems; "hopefully things will change" can only occur when people comprise the change, a fact which demands earnest personal engagement.

This ought to be part of modern Dhamma discourse, especially (but definitely not solely) among the laity.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
chownah
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by chownah »

Richard wrote:I have read the lecture, and think Gombrich makes a good point when he says that Thai and other Theravada temples in the West function primarily as ethnic cultural centers, and don't really make an effort to introduce Theravada to peoples around the world. As he says in his most recent book, Gombrich is not actually a practicing Buddhist, but he is a sympathetic scholar who wants people to live up to their religious principles. As someone noted above, the Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies has good website with a number of interesting papers worth reading.
Richard
It might be good for people to undestand that Thai temples IN THAILAND have as a primary purpose to provide social centers.......the main focus of life in small Thai villages (about half of he population live in small villages or grew up in one) is the temple....all events and celebrations whether Buddhist related or not take place at the temple...community services are offered there.....if the national gov't wants to provide free blood tests to check for pesticide levels then the blood drawing will happen at the temple for instance.....just a few days ago was the Loy Kratoong festival which is not Buddist in nature and he focus of festivities was at the temple for instance....If a hail storm hits and alot of roof tiles are broken around the village and the gov't distributes free replacements the center of operations to coordinate the effort will be at the temple.......so does it come as any surprise that Thai temples overseas provide the same functions?....for me it would be surprising if they didn't.
chownah
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retrofuturist
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Chownah,

I don't think it's that those sort of things are a problem - they only become a problem where they inhibit the proliferation of the Dhamma.

For example - the nearest Theravada vihara to me (albeit still 30-40km or so away) is Sri Lankan. All the Dhamma services given are in Sinhalese only. Seeing a gap in my local area, monks from another vihara have started doing a bit of a Dhamma circuit, where they visit different locations to teach the Dhamma on a rotating schedule... but once again - Sinhalese only. The choice of language for the Dhamma talks and other services presented by both institutions underpin their intent -i.e. servicing Melbourne's Sri Lankan community (comfort) - not servicing Melbourne's potential Theravada community (challenge).

This is the kind of thing that Gombrich is speaking about - how can Theravada spread (other than via the Internet?) if "missions" to other countries aren't up for the "challenge" of disseminating the Dhamma into new domains? If they opt for "comfort", they're only ever going to be "preaching to the converted", and even then... the choice of language utilised by their institutions demonstrates quite clearly their primary purpose for being there, and it's not to extend the Dhamma out to the natives.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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daverupa
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by daverupa »

:goodpost:
chownah wrote:It might be good for people to undestand that Thai temples IN THAILAND have as a primary purpose to provide social centers
Yes; this is a problem.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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tiltbillings
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by tiltbillings »

daverupa wrote::goodpost:
chownah wrote:It might be good for people to undestand that Thai temples IN THAILAND have as a primary purpose to provide social centers
Yes; this is a problem.
For whom?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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manas
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by manas »

tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:It might be good for people to undestand that Thai temples IN THAILAND have as a primary purpose to provide social centers
Yes; this is a problem.
For whom?
Hi Tilt,

it is a problem in the sense that if the temple's primary purpose is as a social center, rather than a place for the practice and dissemination of Buddha Dhamma, that people might see the Dhamma itself in that way, seeing it as something external to oneself (ie like a temple building), rather than as something that should really be taken to heart. So, they could (conceivably) go to their local temple day in day out for their whole lives, but totally miss the Dhamma...

Just my opinion, of course...

:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by alan »

What we need is a leader. Someone who can speak with authority, and focus the message effectively.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by tiltbillings »

manasikara wrote: it is a problem in the sense that if the temple's primary purpose is as a social center, rather than a place for the practice and dissemination of Buddha Dhamma, that people might see the Dhamma itself in that way, seeing it as something external to oneself (ie like a temple building), rather than as something that should really be taken to heart. So, they could (conceivably) go to their local temple day in day out for their whole lives, but totally miss the Dhamma...

Just my opinion, of course...

:anjali:
It is never that simple of either/or. It would be nice if the majority of the monastics were better trained and actually did some sort of meditation practice and were concerned about teaching the Dhamma from a place of more than rote learning. It is difficult to make generalizations about another culture based upon how we think things should be. That a local vihara/temple serves as a social center may not be a bad thing, and it is not that some degree of reverence for the Dhamma is not part of it all, but I suppose it would also be nice if the local temple/vihara could also serve as a place of serious learning.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by tiltbillings »

alan wrote:What we need is a leader. Someone who can speak with authority, and focus the message effectively.
We need good, experienced teachers. I am not wild about the idea of a single charismatic leader.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Anagarika
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by Anagarika »

To my mind, Gombrich's lecture is really him just pointing out the elephant in the room.

Ajahn Brahm made the comment once in an interview, to the effect that "we have the best product. (he was speaking of religions and spiritual instruction). We need to promote it." I am paraphrasing what Ven. Ajahn Brahm said. Ajahn Brahm may be speaking of, and he himself representative of, the emergence of a modern Theravada...firmly wedded to the orthooxy, but not afraid to venture forth into the world, and share and promote, and indeed act with engagement, through what is known in the Tipitaka.

I live in the US. In this country, Zen has a foothold due to its emergence during the 1960's the time of the beat poets, the hippies, the Kerouacs and the Ginsburgs. Motorcycle Maintenance. Vajrayana took hold through the evangelism of the misogynist and alcoholic (sorry) Chogyam Trungpa, who brough "crazy wisdom," and other forms of tantric and ecstatic ' Buddhism.'

What did Theravada have to present? Theravada really didn't come to America. Rather, folks like Jack Kornfield went to Thailand and lived with the snakes, the scorpions, one meal a day of boiled frog soup, and Ajahn Chah. Theravadins like Dr. Kornfield and Ajahn Brahm came back to the West, and have somewhat quietly illuminated the field.

Zen offers flower arranging, kyudo, and anything cool or trendy has a "Zen flavor." Vajrayana offers Green Tara and tantra. Theravada is a steaming bowl of boiled tree frogs. :)

Well, being trendy and Zenny doe snot bring us closer to Dhama, and tantra may be fun, but it's not Dhamma, either.

What Theravada needs to do is what Ajahn Brahm is doing...break out of the mold a bit, offend some of the hierarchy, tell some jokes, engage with people, and really make an effort to help people understand that that the boiled down form of Buddhism, the Tipitaka, holds the key to freedom from suffering.

If Richard G needs any inspiration for what the solution may be to the problems he raisis in his fine lecture, one example of the path forward is Ajahn Brahm. There needs to be more like him.
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