Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tobes
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge

Post by tobes »

mikenz66 wrote:The discussion of Gombrich is at about 50 minutes. Ajahn Brahm expresses agreement with Gombrich's concerns (even though Gombrich is from Oxford, not Cambridge :tongue:).

:anjali:
Mike
Yes, thanks I've now listened to it. For other people who may be interested, the talk was generally about.....well, this may sound strange, but it's true.....the democratic anarchy that defines (or should define) Buddhist modes of organisation. And this extends to one's own mind as well. I must say, very, very interesting from the standpoint of political philosophy.

:anjali:
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Assaji
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge

Post by Assaji »

tobes wrote:For other people who may be interested, the talk was generally about.....well, this may sound strange, but it's true.....the democratic anarchy that defines (or should define) Buddhist modes of organisation.
Well, both of them have scientific background, which gets deeply embedded into the Western Buddhism, and as Paul Feyerabend wrote:

"Science is an essentially anarchistic enterprise"

http://www.marxists.org/reference/subje ... yerabe.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
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tiltbillings
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A talk by R. Gombrich

Post by tiltbillings »

http://www.ocbs.org/lectures-a-articles ... ?showall=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, do pay attention to the website where this talk is found. All sorts of interesting stuff to be found there.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: A talk by R. Gombrich

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Gombrich wrote:To start with, let me revert to comfort and challenge. As the Ven Sugandho has written in the conference document, Theravādin missionaries obviously prefer comforting to challenging. Rather than teaching Buddhism to the indigenous people of their host countries, they mainly run cultural centres for the Buddhist immigrants from their countries of origin, centres which indeed operate largely in Sinhalese, Burmese, Thai, etc., not in the language of the country where the missions operate. To run such a centre is not in itself an unworthy thing to do: in the modern world most countries regard providing cultural attachés and consular services as part of their diplomatic mission. But if this is the main and central activity of the mission, it points to an extremely serious underlying weakness in the Theravāda Buddhism we find in the world today: its parochial nationalism. It is outrageous that the vast majority of Theravāda Buddhists, whether monastics or laity, consider only Buddhists of their own nationality to be true Buddhists; and whatever they may say in public, that is indeed what most of them think.
Sad but true.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ben
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Re: A talk by R. Gombrich

Post by Ben »

Thanks Tilt!
Anything by Gombrich, in my book, is gold.
I look forward to reading it shortly.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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retrofuturist
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Re: A talk by R. Gombrich

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Gombrich wrote:How, then, can Theravāda Buddhism be disseminated? How can it even be saved? I find the answer obvious. We have to return to the Buddha’s teaching. ... Yes; we have to take the Buddha seriously!
:thumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
alan
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Re: A talk by R. Gombrich

Post by alan »

I agree with both of you. And thanks to tiltbillings for the link.
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Dan74
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Re: A talk by R. Gombrich

Post by Dan74 »

There are of course exceptions (not sure how common or uncommon). A local Burmese venerable Sayadaw U Pandita is very active with non-Burmese.
_/|\_
chownah
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Re: A talk by R. Gombrich

Post by chownah »

Concerning Gombrich's aritlce "Comfort or Challenge? "....it saddens me that in my view Gombrich's display of ignorance of the attitudes of the vast majority of Buddhists in Thailand has undermined is attempts to promote some good ideas about improving the world.

This article is so off the mark and lacking in reasoning supported by knowledge of the world and the Buddha's teachings that I really don't know where to start.......it really appears that he thinks that his having expereinced the literati of Theravada scholars that he can from knowing them understand the attitudes of the bulk of Thai Buddhists....MOST Thai Buddhists don't even know that the International Conference on Dissemination of Theravada Buddhism in the 21st Century happened and frankly if they knew they wouldn't care....on the other hand Gombrich's nancing around with the Buddhist "hi-so" probably has in his mind been a day of researching the attitudes of the common asian buddhist.....this sort of thing is a common mistake made by westerners but I am really very surprised that a man so adored by many and so in the limelight would write such an uninformed article......perhaps I'll re-read some of it and if I can distill out something worth focusing on I'll post some more......but for now I think I prefer the Comfort of just forgetting all about this fiasco rather than the Challenge of trying to straighten out this twisted presentation.
Sorry that this is so negative....but really this is my impression....please forgive me in my ignorance.
chownah
P.S. Perhaps if someone wants to bring up specific issues I would give my comments...for me to tackle the entire article would take way to much time and effort for me and frankly I do not see the article as worth that much effort.....too much bath water.....not enough baby....
chownah
chownah
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Re: A talk by R. Gombrich

Post by chownah »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Gombrich wrote:How, then, can Theravāda Buddhism be disseminated? How can it even be saved? I find the answer obvious. We have to return to the Buddha’s teaching. ... Yes; we have to take the Buddha seriously!
:thumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
Is Gombrich joking?
or
Yes indeed.....we should take the Buddha seriously when he taught that all things are impermanent (I guess this includes Theravada Buddhism) and that his sasana would assuredly end.......I guess......is this how Gombrich wants us to take the Buddha seriously?
chownah
alan
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Re: A talk by R. Gombrich

Post by alan »

If Its so wrong, and is so upsetting that you don't know how to start, well, you could start at the beginning.
What upsets you the most?
Tell us how your reasoning process is superior. Where did Gombrich make logical mistakes? How would you have done better?
Spitting out a criticism of something you haven't fully read, and barely understand, is extremely arrogant.
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Ben
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Re: A talk by R. Gombrich

Post by Ben »

chownah wrote:Concerning Gombrich's aritlce "Comfort or Challenge? "....it saddens me that in my view Gombrich's display of ignorance of the attitudes of the vast majority of Buddhists in Thailand has undermined is attempts to promote some good ideas about improving the world.

This article is so off the mark and lacking in reasoning supported by knowledge of the world and the Buddha's teachings that I really don't know where to start.......it really appears that he thinks that his having expereinced the literati of Theravada scholars that he can from knowing them understand the attitudes of the bulk of Thai Buddhists....MOST Thai Buddhists don't even know that the International Conference on Dissemination of Theravada Buddhism in the 21st Century happened and frankly if they knew they wouldn't care....on the other hand Gombrich's nancing around with the Buddhist "hi-so" probably has in his mind been a day of researching the attitudes of the common asian buddhist.....this sort of thing is a common mistake made by westerners but I am really very surprised that a man so adored by many and so in the limelight would write such an uninformed article......perhaps I'll re-read some of it and if I can distill out something worth focusing on I'll post some more......but for now I think I prefer the Comfort of just forgetting all about this fiasco rather than the Challenge of trying to straighten out this twisted presentation.
Sorry that this is so negative....but really this is my impression....please forgive me in my ignorance.
chownah
P.S. Perhaps if someone wants to bring up specific issues I would give my comments...for me to tackle the entire article would take way to much time and effort for me and frankly I do not see the article as worth that much effort.....too much bath water.....not enough baby....
chownah
Greetings Chownah,
My reading of Gombrich is that its a little different to the arrogant western Buddhist who decry the Buddhism practiced in Asia as deficient.
In fairness to Gombrich, I believe his observations are valid and I think it speaks of a lack of willingness within the leadership of the Sangha to address issues such as the Sri Lankan civil war, the monk's protest (and massacre) in Myanmar in 2007 and resistence to the reintroduction of the Bhikkhuni Sangha.
Living in a Theravada-country full time I think you are in a position to offer some very valuable insights and I look forward to you responding to some (or all) of Gombrich's claims if and when or if you want to. Certainly, when I was in Myanmar I felt closer to the Burmese Buddhists than the vast majority of opinionated western Buddhists.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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appicchato
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Re: A talk by R. Gombrich

Post by appicchato »

Well, there were certainly a few darts thrown in his presentation...and, if I were asked, rightly so...every point he made I found to be valid...if someone disagrees, show us the holes...

I was sitting a few rows back that day, and my one recurring thought was that of the several hundred sitting in the auditorium (roughly fifty fifty monks and lay people), a mere handful had a working knowledge of English (no exaggeration)...handouts of the speaker's text were given out beforehand, but again, in English (Thais are so averse to criticism I cringe at the thought of what a Thai translation would have incurred…can't speak for Sinhalese, Burmese, Lao, or Khmer)…so I asked myself: what's the point?...virtually no one in attendance would ever know what he was saying, or why...

I don't really know why I'm relating this, maybe it's just part of the problem he's referring to…rites and rituals...
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Ben
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Re: A talk by R. Gombrich

Post by Ben »

Thank you, Bhante.
I wonder whether Gombrich knew that the vast majority of his audience during that talk were non-English speakers?
Interesting...
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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tiltbillings
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Re: A talk by R. Gombrich

Post by tiltbillings »

Actually, I am sorry I referenced that talk. What is of more intertest is the websit itself. Lots of interesting things there for those who find lots of interesting things interesting.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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