Is there sutta basis for the modern bifurcation of jhanas?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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retrofuturist
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Is there sutta basis for the modern bifurcation of jhanas?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:57 am

Greetings,

In contemporary Dhamma discourse, there is often a bifurcation established between "samatha-jhanas" and "vipassana-jhanas".

The purpose of this topic is to explore, with exclusive recourse to the Sutta Pitaka, whether this bifurcation has any establishment or grounding in the Buddha's own teaching.

Not being an exponent of the bifurcated jhana model, I open up the floor and invite those who may find benefit in this bifurcation to explain, with exclusive recourse to the Sutta Pitaka, the underlying basis for the delineation and the clarity or benefit that may be derivable from it in practical terms.

:meditate:

(Please note: This topic has been tightly framed to facilitate exploration with respect to the Sutta Pitaka. Any posts which do not relate to the tight framing of this topic may be removed without notice as being off-topic, and because they increase the risk of off-topic conflict between exponents/practitioners of one or other of the aforemention bifurcated jhanas. Thank you in advance for your co-operation.)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Is there sutta basis for the modern bifurcation of jhanas?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:49 am

Probably would best define the key terms here.

This interview may be of interest in pointing to how jhana have become more than originally conceived:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=9016&p=140127#p140097

Somewhere in some thread on this form it has been discussed that the vipassana jhana are probably line with what the suttas taught more so than the later conceptions of the fully absorbed jhana notion of the commentaries and the Visuddhimagga.

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Re: Is there sutta basis for the modern bifurcation of jhanas?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:09 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Is there sutta basis for the modern bifurcation of jhanas?

Postby Nyana » Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:10 am


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Temp

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:34 am

Here is a discussion of the vipassana jhanas by Ven U Pandita.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pesala/Pan ... hanas.html

The desrciption he gives there is what I agree with.

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:24 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby Nyana » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:38 pm


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Re: Is there sutta basis for the modern bifurcation of jhanas?

Postby daverupa » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:46 pm

Fascinating reading, friends.

:heart:

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby manas » Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:41 pm

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby danieLion » Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:05 pm

Last edited by danieLion on Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is there sutta basis for the modern bifurcation of jhanas?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:04 am

Greetings,

:broke:

I thought it was quite clear from what I highlighted that Thanissaro Bhikkhu is not responsible for the modern bifurcation of jhanas, and if anything, is demonstrating that (in the realm of Mental Cultivation in the Sutta Pitaka) it seems to be an unnecessary and unfruitful separation.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Is there sutta basis for the modern bifurcation of jhanas?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:36 am


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Re: Is there sutta basis for the modern bifurcation of jhanas?

Postby danieLion » Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:56 am


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Re: Is there sutta basis for the modern bifurcation of jhanas?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:26 am


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Re: Is there sutta basis for the modern bifurcation of jhanas?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:40 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Is there sutta basis for the modern bifurcation of jhanas?

Postby danieLion » Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:04 am


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Re: Is there sutta basis for the modern bifurcation of jhanas?

Postby Zom » Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:59 am

"Jhana and Lokuttara-Jhana" essay by Ven. Brahmali:

http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebmed092.htm

:buddha1:

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:47 am


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Re: Is there sutta basis for the modern bifurcation of jhanas?

Postby Gena1480 » Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:01 pm

if you look at sutta 111
one by one
there is line there there in the sutta
that says that this way of practice is the right way.
Sariputta, monks, takes the unexcelled wheel of Dhamma set rolling by the Tathagata, and keeps it rolling rightly.
this way of practicing is the right way
keeping the wheel of Dhamma rolling rightly
we should follow the advice of Buddha
we want to keep the wheel of Dhamma rolling rightly
for the benefit of beings

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Re: Is there sutta basis for the modern bifurcation of jhanas?

Postby manas » Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:40 am

Retro,

My apologies also; I guess I misunderstood what you wrote above; ok now I understand that you were not being critical of what Ven Thanissaro had said. My misunderstanding, I will put it down to lack of sleep...

metta

:anjali:
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."


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