Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Post by tiltbillings »

DarwidHalim wrote:Buddha is perfect in any directions. Arahant only perfect in certain directions.
Maybe, but as the the texts make quite clear, the bodhi is no different.
Later forms of Buddhism draw extreme distinctions between the Buddhas and the arahants, but in the Nikayas this distinction is not as sharp as one might expect if one takes the later texts as the benchmark of interpretation. On the one hand, the Buddha is an arahant, as is evident from the standard verse of homage to the Blessed One; on the other, arahants are buddhas, in the sense that they have attainted full enlightenment, sambodhi, by awakening to the same truths that the Buddha himself realized.A Buddha has the function of discovering and expounding the path, and he also possesses a unique familiarity with the intricacies of the path not shared by his disciples. His disciples follow the path he reveals and attain enlightenment afterward, under his guidance. IN THE BUDDHA’S WORDS, trans by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Page 382.
Jake Davis:

Maintaining a definition of arahant as one completely pure of unskillful intentions, the Pali texts depict the Buddha’s own awakening [bodhi] to be the same in nature as that of any arahant, though distinguished, of course, by being the first. STRONG ROOTS by Jake Davis page 45 http://www.dharma.org/bcbs/Pages/docume ... gRoots.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote: unnecessarily pedantic.

As is this topic...
On the other hand, I have just presented a rather detailed look, via the suttas, at the question of bodhi vis a vis the Buddha and the arahant, which I would think would be of interest to those who are interested in what the suttas say about such things. It presents a very radical view of how the Buddha regarded awakening, and I weould think it would be something welcomed by those who are not too interested in what they see as watered down commentarial Buddhism, not mention the what Mahayana does with the Buddha and the arahants. Pedantic? I would say: learned.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Post by tiltbillings »

DarwidHalim wrote:I just use my common sense.
I would say that the suttas trump your "common sense." You really need to reread what I wrote with some care. You are still not quite getting it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Post by tiltbillings »

DarwidHalim wrote:
Ven Bodhi wrote:Another view from Bhikku Bodhi may give us some additional informations:
Thus we can see the respects in which the Buddha and disciple arahants share certain qualities in common, above all their liberation from all defilements and from all bonds connecting them to the round of rebirths. And we also see how the Buddha is distinguished from his disciples, namely: (1) by the priority of his attainment, (2) by his function as teacher and guide, and (3) by his acquisition of certain qualities and modes of knowledge that enable him to function as teacher and guide. He also has a physical body endowed with thirty-two excellent characteristics and with other marks of physical beauty. These inspire confidence in those who rely on beauty of form."
This is exactly what I am saying. Keep in mind, DarwidHalim, that (1) by the priority of his attainment, (2) by his function as teacher and guide, and (3) by his acquisition of certain qualities and modes of knowledge that enable him to function as teacher and guide are not bodhi.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Pedantic?
Nothing wrong with your posts... they're straight down the line.

Its Darwid's original offering and subsequent argumentation that seems pedantic from here.

I admire your patience in response to it...

:popcorn:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Pedantic?
Nothing wrong with your posts... they're straight down the line.

Its Darwid's original offering and subsequent argumentation that seems pedantic from here.

I admire your patience in response to it...

:popcorn:

Metta,
Retro. :)
Thanks.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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pilgrim
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Post by pilgrim »

tiltbillings wrote:
pilgrim wrote:A Buddha is an arahant, but not all arahants are Buddhas, just one.
But, as the above shows, all arahants are awake, buddha.
Yes the arahants are awake and share the same realisation of the Four Noble Truths as the Buddha. But arahants are not Buddhas. Arahants are arahants. They do not have the other 8 great qualities of the Buddha. Itipiso bhagava ....
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tiltbillings
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Post by tiltbillings »

pilgrim wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
pilgrim wrote:A Buddha is an arahant, but not all arahants are Buddhas, just one.
But, as the above shows, all arahants are awake, buddha.
Yes the arahants are awake and share the same realisation of the Four Noble Truths as the Buddha. But arahants are not Buddhas. Arahants are arahants. They do not have the other 8 great qualities of the Buddha. Itipiso bhagava ....
And arahants are tathagata and awake, buddha, as the suttas themselves clearly say. There is an extremely important point here. While later Buddhists tended to, to varying degrees, elevate the Buddha, they actually did so at the expense of the arahant. In this, I would rather look to the suttas and we see something very radical in what the Buddha is saying here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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acinteyyo
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Post by acinteyyo »

Hi DarwidHalim, all,

there are a lot of different terms and it seems to me that some terms weren't carefully distinguished which leads to confusion.

"Buddha" is primarily simply an appellation for "one who has attained awakening". Ususally when we talk about the "Buddha", we're talking about the perfectly awakened one (sammā sambuddha), Prince Siddhattha Gotama. This should not be mixed up.

"Arahant" (holy One) is an appellation for one who is free from the 10 fetters, free from greed, hatred and delusion, has attained awakening by realizing the 4 noble truths.

"Tathāgata (One thus gone) is an epithet of the Buddha used by him when speaking of himself.

An Arahant (holy One) or a Tathāgata (One thus gone) is "one who has attained awakening" may therefore also be called a "Buddha".

"Sammā sambuddha" a perfectly awakened one by whom the liberating law (dhamma) which had become lost to the world, has again been discovered, realized and clearly proclaimed to the world.

"Pacceka buddha" an independently awakened one is an individual who realized the truths, the liberating law by himself without hearing it ever from someone else. But the independently awakened one doesn't have the ability to proclaim and teach the dhamma clearly to the world like a perfectly awakened one (sammā sambuddha). (There's a simile of a dumb and deaf man who tasted a flavour which has not been tasted by anyone else. He knows the flavour but is unable to tell anyone else about it.)

"Awakening" (or "Enlightenment", but I prefer the first) is called "bodhi".

The Arahant (holy One), a Tathāgata (One thus gone) and a Buddha (One who has attained awakening) all realized the four noble truths, freed themselves from greed, hatred and delusion. Their "bodhi" is not different essentially, they all attained Nibbāna.

But there are some differentiations regarding "bodhi". Differentiations in designation not in essence!
"Sāvaka bodhi" (awakening of a noble disciple) is the description for the awakening of a disciple who realized the truths taught by the perfectly awakened one (sammā sambuddha).
"Pacceka-bodhi" (indipendent awakening) is the description for the awakening of independently awakend one.
"Sammā-sambodhi" (perfect awakening) is the description for the awakening of a perfectly awakened one. "Now, someone, in things never heard before, understands by himself the truth, and he therein attains omniscience, and gains mastery in the powers. Such a one is called a perfectly awakened One" [Pug.29]

With respect to the mastery in the powers of the Sammā-sambuddha or the powers of the Tathāgata, who is able of what, in what degree or how is considered by myself as unnecessary differentiation. Because in the end:
M22 wrote:Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Maybe this helps in some way, but I'm afraid this will go on just for the sake of discussion...

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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