Taking refuge in Buddha??????

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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:35 am

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Postby DarwidHalim » Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:22 am

tiltbillings wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote:Are you telling us that an arahant is not awake?


I have no doubt arahant has been awake, free from reborn, and has eliminated ignorance, hatred, jealousy, etc. But, I have big doubt arahant has all skills that buddhas have, such as his ability to see countless past life for example.

This differences at least to me is enough to classify buddha is different from arahant. Buddha (Tathagarta) is arahant, but not vice versa.

Be happy :anjali:
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:31 am

DarwidHalim wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote:Are you telling us that an arahant is not awake?


I have no doubt arahant has been awake, free from reborn, and has eliminated ignorance, hatred, jealousy, etc. But, I have big doubt arahant has all skills that buddhas have, such as his ability to see countless past life for example.
An arahant can have that power, but that power is not bodhi, awakening.

This differences at least to me is enough to classify buddha is different from arahant. Buddha (Tathagarta) is arahant, but not vice versa.
The texts I quoted (and linked) support my position, not yours.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Postby Ben » Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:49 am

DarwidHalim wrote:NOT ALL THERAVADIST have a narrow mindset, who doesn't like to be challenge or ask contradiction thing.


May I suggest you refrain from making barely-concealed personal attacks on those who are challenging your point of view.
"Only those who take to meditation with good intentions can be assured of success. With the development of the purity and the power of the mind backed by the insight into the ultimate truth of nature, one might be able to do a lot of things in the right direction for the benefit of mankind."

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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Postby pilgrim » Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:52 am

A Buddha is an arahant, but not all arahants are Buddhas, just one.
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:11 am

Here is something (I posted elsewhere) to carefully read:

• The Buddha :

In the same way I saw an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times.

And what is that ancient path, that ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times ?

Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right aspiration, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

That is the ancient path, the ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times.

I followed that path.

Following it, I came to direct knowledge of fabrications, direct knowledge of the origination of fabrications, direct knowledge of the cessation of fabrications, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of fabrications.

Knowing that directly, I have revealed it to monks, nuns, male lay followers & female lay followers, so that this holy life has become powerful, rich, detailed, well-populated, wide-spread, proclaimed among celestial & human beings.


• SN ii 106 • Nagara Sutta


No, brahman, there isn't any one monk endowed in each & every way with the qualities with which the Blessed One — worthy & rightly self-awakened — was endowed. For the Blessed One was the arouser of the unarisen path, the begetter of the unbegotten path, the expounder of the unexpounded path, the knower of the path, the expert with regard to the path, adept at the path. And now his disciples follow the path and become endowed with it after him."

~ MN 108


Savant, in responding to my claim that in the Pali suttas the bodhi, awakening, of the Buddha and the awakening of the arahant is the same states, disapprovingly states:

I am amazed by your stance here. As we have said many times here, cessation [which savant claims is the only thing that is the same between the Buddha and the arahant] means both the Arahant and the Buddha has acheived Unbinding, that stress is ended and there will be no more endless involuntary rebirth in samsara.

Bodhi, as the Buddha defines it, is the awakening to the Four Noble Truths:

1] But as soon as my knowing and seeing how things are, was quite purified in these twelve aspects, in these three phases of each of the Four Noble Truths, then I claimed in the world with its gods, its Maras and high divinities, in this generation with its monks and brahmans, its princes and men to have discovered the full Awakening that is supreme. Knowing and seeing arose in me thus: 'My heart's deliverance is unassailable. This is the last birth. Now there is no renewal of being." SN v 423 For the details, see:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/su ... 6-011.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


2a] Bhikkhus, whatever ascetics or brahmins in the past fully awakened [abhisambojjhati] to things as they really are, all fully awakened to the Four Noble Truths as they really are. Whatever ascetics or brahmins in the future will fully awakewned to things as they really are, will fully awakened to the Four Noble Truths as they really are. Whatever asceyics or brahmins at present have fully awakened to things as they really are, all have awakened to the Four Noble Truths as they really are. SN V 416

Abhisambhojjhati, the highest, perfect awakening.

2b] Bhikkhus, whatever ascetics or brahmins in the past revealed themselves as having fully awakened [abhisambuddha.m] to things as they really are, all revealed themselves as having fully awakened to the Four Noble Truths as they really are. Whatever ascetics and brahmins in the future.... Whatever ascetics and brahmins at present reveal themselves as fully awakened [abhisambuddha.m] to things as they really are, all reveal themselves as fully awakened to the Four Noble Truths as they really are. SN v 417

Abhisambuddha is a word almost exclusively used in the Pali texts for the Buddha, but here it finds an appropriate wider application referring to those ascetics and brahmins -- note the plural in the text -- who, like the Buddha, have awakened in the past, in the present and who will awaken in the future, to the Four Noble Truths. Most dramatic is this passage from the interestingly titled Arahant Sutta:

3] Bhikkhus, whatever Arahants, Perfectly Enlightened Ones [Arahanto sammaasambuddha], in the past fully awakened to things as they are, all fully awakened to the Four Noble Truths as they really. Whatever Arahants, Perfectly Enlightened Ones, in the future will fully awaken to things as they really are, all will fully awakened to to the Four Noble Truths as they really are. Whatever Arahants, Perfectly Enlightened Ones, at present have fully awakened to things as they really are, all have fully awakened to the Four Noble Truths as they really are. SN v 433

Arahanto sammaasambuddha, a title used exclusively for the Buddha, but note the plural. If there can be only one Buddha, sammaasambuddha, at a time for any one dispensation, as we are told in several other Pali texts, then this expression in this text, arahanto sammaasambuddha, is obviously being used by the Buddha for a strong dramatic effect in establishing equivalency of the Buddha's bodhi to the arahants as the title suggests and as we see in the parallel texts above.

Abhisambojjhati, abhisambuddha.m, and arahanto sammaasambuddha, titles used for the Buddha, here are used by the Buddha, to describe those who have attained, or will attain sambodhi, awakening into the Four Noble Truths, no longer bound by greed, hatred, or ignorance, with nothing further to be done, acting from wisdom and compassion. Whether is a Pa~n~naa--vimutta arahant or pa~n~naa--ceto-vimutta arahant, their bodhi is no less than that of the Buddha’s, as the Buddha in these very strongly, dramatically, worded passages makes clear.

A brahmin, who saw the Buddha shortly after the Buddha's awakening, asked him, "What are you?"

The Buddha replied:

4] The outflows [asavas] whereby would be
A deva-birth or airy sprite,
Gandharva, or whereby myself
Would reach the state of yakkhahood,
Or to birth in a human womb--
Those outflows now by myself
Are slain, extinguished and rooted out.

"As a lotus, fair and lovely
By the water is not soiled,
By the world am I not soiled:
Therefore, brahmin, am I awake [buddha].
-- AN II 37-9.

The Buddha defines his accomplishment -- that he is awake, buddha -- no differently than would/could any arahant -- by the extinguishing the outflows by one's own effort. Buddha, one who is awake, and bodhi, awakening are derived from the root budh, awakening. One who has attained bodhi is buddha.

5] The Buddha speaking: The Blessed Lord is awakened [buddho] and teaches a doctrine of awakening [bodhi], he is self-restrained and teaches a doctrine of self-restraint, he is calm and teaches a doctrine of calm. He has gone beyond and teaches a doctrine of going beyond, he has attained nibbana and teaches a doctrine for gaining nibbana. DN iii 54-5 cf MN ii 235

The Buddha is not claiming here some sort of different awakening for himself from that which he teaches, anymore than he is claiming a different self-restraint or a different nibbana, and he calls those who attain the goal he taught, buddha:

6] Dhammapada 419: "Who knows in every way the passing away and rebirth of beings, unattached, well-gone [sugata], awake [buddha], That one I [the Buddha] call _brahmana_."

Speaking of his awakening from another angle, the Buddha addresses the question of cessation:

7] "The thought occurred to me, 'I [the Buddha] have attained this path to Awakening [bodhi], i.e., from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Thus is the cessation of this entire mass of stress. Cessation, cessation.' Vision arose, clear knowing arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before. SN ii 105

And speaking of the basis of an earlier Buddha's awakening the Buddha states:

8] Then the Bodhisatta Vipassi thought: 'I have found the insight way to sambodhi, namely: "By the cessation of mind-and-body consciousness ceaes ...And thus this whole mass of suffering ceases." And the thought: "Cessation, cessation", there arose in the Bodhisatta Vipassi, with insight into things never realized before, knowledge, vision, awareness, and light. DN ii 35

Note: he found the way to sambodhi, not some other attainment.

Cessation and bodhi:

9] Bhikkhus, the seven factors of awakening, when developed and cultivated, lead to utter revulsion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to bodhi, to nibbana. SN v 82

10] "And what have I [the Buddha] taught? 'This is dukkha... This is the origination of dukkha... This is the cessation of dukkha... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of dukkha': This is what I have taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening [sambodhi], to nibbana. This is why I have taught them. SN v 437 cf DN i 189

11] Because, friend, this is beneficial, relevant to the fundamentals of the holy life, and leads to revulsion, dispassion, to cessation [nirodha], to peace, to direct knowledge[abi~n~ aa], to sambodhi, to nibbana. Therefore the Blessed one has declared it. SN ii 223

And three more passages showing the relationship -- equivalency -- of bodhi and nibbana in the suttas:

12] A monk who is thus possesses the fifteen factors including entusiasm is capapable of beaking out, capable of sambodhi, capable of attaining the supreme security from bondage [these last four words are used for nibbana, see 17] below]. MN i 104

13] The Tathagata has awkened to the middle way, which gives rise to vision, which gives rise to knowledge, which leads to peace, to direct knowledge, to sambodhi, to nibbana. And what is the middle way awakened to by the tathagata .... It is the Noble Eightfold Path.... SN iv 330-1

14] There friends, greed is an evil, anger is an evil. To dispel greed and anger, there is the middle path which conduces to wisdom, knowledge, sambodhi, and nibbana. It is this same noble eightfold path such as right view, right thoughts, right speech, right actions, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. Friends, this is the middle path which conduces to wisdom, knowledge, sambodhi, and nibbana. MN i 15

Which bring us to this discourse which is called, importantly enough, the Sammasambuddha Sutta:

15a] At Saavatthi. "Bhikkhus, the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, liberated by nonclinging through revulsion towards form (feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness), through its fading away and cessation is called a perfectly Enlightened One. A bhikkhu liberated by wisdom, liberated by nonclinging through revulsion towards form (feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness), through its fading away and cessation is called one liberated by wisdom.

[Here we have an equivalency between the Buddha and the arahants in terms of attainment, and acknowledging this equivalency, the Buddha then asks:]

15b] Therein, bhikkhus, what is the distinction, what is the disparity, what is the difference between the Tathaagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One and a bhikkhu liberated by wisdom? ...

15c] The Tathagata, monks, who, being Arahant, is fully awakened, it is he who causes a way to arise which has not arisen before; who proclaims a way not proclaimed before; who is a knower of a way, who understands a way, who is skilled in a way. And now, monks, his disciples are wayfarers who follow after him. That, monks, is the distinction, the specific feature which distinguished the Tathagata who, being arahant, is fully awakened, from the monk who is freed by insight. SN III 66.

What makes the Buddha's awakening samma sambodhi, is that through his own power he awoke to the Four Noble Truths, and the arahant follows the same process the Buddha discovered, used, and taught to the same awakening. As we have seen the Buddha makes no claim the bodhi he attained is different from the bodhi attained by the arahant -- see 5] above. He simply attained it first and made the way known, which isw the basis for him being called samma sambudhha.

What he has attained is what he teaches we can attain, as we see (see 5] above):

16] "Come, this is the Way, this is the course I [the Buddha] have followed until, having realized by my own super-knowledge the matchless plunge into Brahma-faring, I have made it known. Come you too, follow likewise, so that you also, having realized by your own super-knowledge the matchless plunge into the Brahma-faring, may abide in it." -- AN I 168-69.

He [the Buddha] says: 'Here! This is the path, this is the practice that, having practiced, I make known the unexcelled gaining of a footing in the holy life, having directly known & realized it for myself. Come! You, too, practice in such a way that you will remain in the unexcelled gaining of a footing in the holy life [attaining nibbana], having directly known & realized it for yourselves.' Thus the Teacher teaches the Dhamma, and others practice, for Suchness. And there are countless hundreds of them, countless thousands of them, countless hundreds of thousands of them. This being the case … this business of going-forth … one that benefits countless beings…. AN I 168-69. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/su ... 3-060.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

17] "So I [the Buddha], monks being liable to birth because of self, having known the perils in what is liable to birth, seeking freedom from birth, the uttermost security from the bonds -- nibbana -- won freedom from birth [ajata], the uttermost security from the bonds -- nibbana...."

...

"Then the group of five monks, being thus exhorted, this instructed
by me
[the Buddha], being liable to birth because of self, having known the perils in what is liable to birth, seeking freedom from birth, the uttermost security from the bonds -- nibbana [nirvana] -- won freedom from birth [ajata], the uttermost security from the bonds -- nibbana...." Majjhima Nikaya I 167 and 173.

(This MN text, the Ariyapariysena Sutta, is one of the most import descriptions of the Buddha's struggle to awakening.)

18] 'Two things, o monks, I [the Buddha] came to know well: not to be content with good states of mind, so far achieved and to be unremitting in the struggle for the goal. Unremittingly, indeed, did I struggle and I resolved: "Let skin, sinews and bones remain; let flesh and blood in the body dry up: yet there shall be no ceasing of energy, manly energy, manly effort!"

'Through heedfulness have I won sambodhi, through effort have I won the unsurpassable security from bondage
[yogakkhemo=nibbana].

'If you, O monks, will struggle unremittingly and resolve: "Let skin ... [as above] manly effort" -- then you, too, O monks, will soon realize here and now, through your own direct knowledge, that unequaled goal of the holy life."'
-- AN II ii 5.

In other words: I, the Buddha, through my own efforts attained sambodhi, you too, making the same effort can win that very same goal.

So far the only thing described here that is unique to the Buddha is that he aatained awakening first by his own efforts.

Savant: Look at the fact that absolutely none of the Arahants could match the Buddha in wisdom and power.

19a] I [the Buddha], monks dwell, having actualized here and now the higher knowledges [abinna], freed through the heart/mind [cetovimutti] and freed through wisdom [pa~n~navimutti]. Kassapa, too, monks, dwells having actualized here and now the higher knowledges, freed through the heart/mind and freed through wisdom. - SN II, 214

19b] What is of interest in this text is what precedes this passage ([19a]). There are 15 items listed, with the above quoted item ([19a]) being the very last one listed, and it is the only one that is indicative of awakening. The first 9 have to do with the attainment of jhana meditation, the remaining six are the abhiññás.

See:

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/abhinna.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

• (1) magical powers (iddhi-vidha),
• (2) divine ear (dibba-sota),
• (3) penetration of the minds of others (ceto-pariya-ñána),
• (4) remembrance of former existences (pubbe-nivásánussati),
• (5) divine eye (dibba-cakkhu),
• (6) extinction of all cankers (ásavakkhaya).


Now, the Buddha does not say his attainments are greater or that Kassapa’s are lesser. The exact same language is being used, and this is not unique in the Pali suttas. If anything, it indicates an equality.

Number 6 (#15 in the Kassapa list and 19a] above), however, is not worded in terms of the extinction of the cankers (asavas), in this list, but in terms of attainment of knowledge, liberation and wisdom. What the Buddha knows, Kassapa, too, knows (in terms of the destruction of the asavas and the Four Noble Truths).

The preceding 14 items are worded in this way:

Bhikkhus, to whatever extent I [the Buddha] wish to attain this jhana or know with divine eye which is purified and surpasses human the death and rebirth of being born into this or that state, I can. Kassapa, too, to whatever extent he wishes to attain this jhana or know with divine eye which is purified and surpasses human the death and rebirth of being born into this or that state, he can. Sn II 210-14.

The realization of nibbana, the attainment of arahantship, the attainment of bodhi are equivalent words:

20] "That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is nibbana." SN IV 251 and IV 321

21] "The destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion is arahantship." SN IV 359

22] "Whoever frees himself from the passions of lust, hatred, and delusion, they call him, one who is self developed, made divine, thus-gone (tathagata), awake (buddha), one who has left fear and hatred, and one who has let go of all." Itivuttaka 57

One who has thus gone (to the other shore)/thus come (to awakening) is one who is a wake, buddha, one who has attained bodhi. ("Tathagata" is, in the Pali suttas no infrequently used as a term for arahants.)

And this now brings us to Digha Nikaya 28, Sampasadaniya Sutta:

Sariputta states: All those Arahant Buddhas [arahanto sammasambuddha] of the past attainted to sambodhi by abandoning the five hinderances, defilements of the mind which weaken understanding, having firmly established the four foundations of mindfulness, and realized the seven factors of awakening as they really are. All the Arahant Buddhas of the future will do likewise, and you, Lord, who are now the Arahant, fully-awakened Buddha, have done the same.

First thing worth noting is that the way of attainment of awakening/sambodhi, by Buddhas past present and future, described here is exactly what the Buddha taught as the path of practice to his followers.

Secondly, Sariputta says: "attainted to sambodhi, not samma sambodhi when describing the abandoning of the hinderances, etc. by the Buddha. Sambodhi, as we plainly see above, is also used for the attainment of the arahant.

Thirdly, sammasambuddha is used in this quote. The process of abandoning the five hindrances and the establishing the four foundations of mindfulness are the basic practices that the Buddha taught for the attainment of (sam)bodhi. It is obvious it is not the process of abandoning the five hindrances or the establishing the four foundations of mindfulness that distinguishes the Buddha, making him a Sammasambuddha.

It is obvious it is not the process of abandoning the five hindrances or the establishing the four foundations of mindfulness that distinguishes the Buddha, making him a Sammasambuddha. The issue of this discourse is that of Sammasambuddha, and it obviously sammsambuddha is not merely abandoning the five hindrances and the establishing the four foundations of mindfulness, for that is also what arahants do, but what makes a sammasambuddha having the power, the merit, the ability to do it first and then make it known to otrhers.

And this brings us to:

"If, lord, anyone were to ask me: 'What then, friend Sariputta have there ever been in times gone by other recluses or brahmins greater or wiser as to Enlightenment than the Exalted One?'

I
Sariputta] would say 'No.'

'What then, friend Sariputta, will there come in future times any other recluses or brahmins greater or wiser as to Enlightenment than the Exalted One?'

Thus asked, I would say 'No.'

'What then, friend Sariputta, is there Now any other recluse or brahmin greater or wiser as to Enlightenment than the Exalted One?' Thus asked, I would say 'No.'

Again, lord, if I were asked: 'What then, friend Sariputta have there been in times gone by ... will there be in future times other recluses or brahmins exactly the same as the Exalted One, in the matter of Enlightenment?' I would say 'Yes' ... But if I were asked: 'Is there now any recluse or brahmin exactly the same as the Exalted One, in the matter of Enlightenment?' I would say 'No.'

Again, lord, If I were asked: 'Why does the venerable Sariputta thus acknowledge the superiority of one teacher and not that of another?'

Thus asked, I would say: 'In the presence of the Exalted One have I heard him say and from him have received, that whereas in times gone by and in future times, there have been and will be other Supreme Buddhas exactly the same as himself in the matter of Enlightenment, yet that in one and same world system there should arise two Aranhants Buddhas Supreme, the one neither before nor after the other: - that is impossible and unprecedented. That cannot be...'


Again, the issue here is the question of sammasambuddha, and what makes one a sammasambuddha, since there can only be one sammasambuddha at a time, and since the process of abandoning the five hindrances and the establishing the four foundations of mindfulness are the basic practices that give rise to sambodhi for both the Buddha and the arahants. As the Sammasambuddha Sutta clearly points out, it is in the attainment, discovery, of awakening first, everyone else follows after, so in that context the Buddha is unequaled.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:15 am

The ten powers of the Buddha, the Tathagatha-baala, are often cited as a basis for claiming the uniquess of the Buddha.

First of all, none of the ten powers is unique to the Buddha. They are all available to the arahant who cultivates them, as I have clearly shown above. There is nothing that says an arahant cannot cultivate any or all of the ten, and certainly anyone who is an arahant will have number 10. Also, these ten powers are not defined in the
Pali suttas as bodhi.

The arahant ten balaani A v 174-6:

1] All that is compounded is purely, fully and actually know to be impermanent.

2] All that is compounded is purely, fully and actually known to be like charcoal.(This is a metaphorical way of pointing to the lack of inherent thingness, no core,
no atta.)

3] The citta tends towards detachment, leads to detachment, enjoys detachment and the possibility of that which produces the aasavaa has become extinct.

4] The four foundations of mindfulness

5] The four efforts

6] The four steps towards psychic powers [ "concentration of intention (chanda-samádhi) accompanied by effort of will (padhána-sankhára-samannágata), concentration of energy (viriya-samádhi) ... concentration of consciousness (citta-samádhi) ... and concentration of investigation (vimamsa-samádhi) accompanied
by effort of will."

7] The five faculties [Pa~nca indryaani]

8] The five powers [pa~nca balaani: saddha (faith), sati (mindfulness), viriya (energy), samadhi (concentration), pa~n~naa (wisdom)]

9] The seven factors of awakening [ mindfulness (sati-sambojjhanga; s. sati), investigation of the law (dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga), energy (viriya-sambojjhanga; s. viriya, padhána), rapture (píti-sambojjhanga, q.v.) tranquillity
(passaddhi-sambojjhanga, q.v.), concentration (samádhi-sambojjhanga, q.v.), equanimity (upekkhá, q.v.).

10] the Noble Eightfold Path.

Like the Tathagata ten powers, there is considerable over lapping of items.

The first of the TTP, Tatahagata Ten Powers:

TTP: 1]There, o monks, the Perfect One understands according to reality the possible as possible, and the impossible as impossible

The commentary to MN 12 quotes this an explanation of what is entailed in the first tathagata power:

‘Venerable sir, saying it rightly how is the bhikkhu clever/skilled in the possible and impossible.’

‘Aananda, the bhikkhu knows, it is impossible, that one come to right view should take any determination as permanent. It is possible that an ordinary person should take any determination as permanent. It is impossible, that one come to right view should take any determination as pleasant. It is possible that an ordinary person should take any determination as pleasant. ...

Which is to say that this is very much open to the arahant, and is equivalent to the first of the ATP, Arahant Ten Powers.

TTP: 2] ... the result of [one's own] past, present and future actions

This would be part of the fourth factor of ATP: 8] The five powers [pa~nca balaani: saddha (faith), sati (mindfulness), viriya (energy), samadhi (concentration), pa~n~naa (wisdom)]

There is the case, Ananda, where a monk ... He recollects his manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten,
twenty, thirty...
--- SN LI.11; V 265-6; TCDB1727-8

TTP: 3] ... he knows the path leading to all good results

This corresponds to the 10th ATP: The Noble Eightfold Path is well-cultivated.

TTP: 4] ... he knows the world with its many different elements

My friend, I do proclaim that in this very fathom-long body, with its feelings
and mind, is the world, the world's arising, the world's ceasing and the path
leading to the world's ceasing.'
-- AN II 48

Venerable sir, saying it rightly how is the wise bhikkhu clever in the elements?’

‘Ananda, there are eighteen elements. They are the elements of eye, forms and
eye consciousness; ear, sounds, and ear consciousness; nose, scents and nose
consciousness; tongue, tastes and tongue consciousness; body, touches and body
consciousness; mind, ideas and mind consciousness. Aananda, these are the eighteen elements, when the bhikkhu knows and sees them, he becomes clever in the elements.

‘Venerable sir, is there another method through which the bhikkhu becomes clever in the elements?’

‘There is a method. The bhikkhu becomes clever in the six elements, such as the
elements of earth, water, fire, air, space and consciousness Aananda, these are the six elements, when the bhikkhu knows and sees them, saying it rightly he becomes clever in the elements’.

‘Venerable sir, is there another method through which the bhikkhu becomes clever in the elements?’

‘There is a method.These six are the elements of pleasantness, unpleasantness,
pleasure, displeasure, equanimity and ignorance, when the bhikkhu knows and sees them, saying it rightly he becomes clever in the elements’

‘Venerable sir, is there another method through which the bhikkhu becomes clever in the elements?’

‘There is a method. These six are the elements of sensuality, non sensuality, anger, non anger, hurting and non hurting, when the bhikkhu knows and sees them, saying it rightly he becomes clever in the elements’

‘Venerable sir, is there another method through which the bhikkhu becomes clever in the elements?’

‘There is a method.These three are the elements, of sensuality, materiality and
immateriality, when the bhikkhu knows and sees them, sayingit rightly he becomes clever in the elements.’

‘Venerable sir, is there another method through which the bhikkhu becomes clever in the elements?’

‘There is a method. These two are the elements, such as the compounded and the
uncompounded element when the bhikkhu knows and sees them, saying it rightly he becomes clever in the elements.’
MN 115

This corresponds to the 5th ATP: the four basis of mindfulness are well
cultivated.


TTP: 5] ... the different inclinations in beings

TTP: 6] ... the lower and higher faculties in beings

These two are not listed separately in other listing of the tathagatabalani.

Again, this power is also available to the arahant through the powers that arise
from the cultivation of jhana/abhi~n~na: . . . a bhikkhu understands the minds of other beings and persons, having encompassed with his own mind . . . a bhikkhu, with the divine eye. which is purified and surpasses the human . sees beings passing away and being reborn, inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate, and he understands how beings fare on in accordance with their kamma. . . . -- SN LI.11; V 266; TCDB page 1727-8.

Again, we see this as part of the fourth factor of ATP: 8] The five powers [pa~nca balaani: saddha (faith), sati (mindfulness), viriya (energy), samadhi (concentration), pa~n~naa (wisdom)]

TTP: 7] ... the defilement, purity and rising with regard to the absorptions,
deliverances, concentration and attainments


This would correspond to the ATP 8 (the samadhi factor of the five balanis)
and 10 (the 8th factor, Right Samadhi, of the Noble Eightfold path).

TTP: 8] ... remembering many former rebirths

Again, this has been covered above, and such power is available to the individual
who is willing to do the work of cultivating the jhanas.

TTP: 9] ... perceiving with the divine eye how beings vanish and reappear again according to their actions (karma)

As above. As stated a number of these items overlap, and mastery of one will entail mastery of the other.

TTP: 10] ... gaining, through extinction of all taints, possession of
'deliverance of mind' and 'deliverance through wisdom' ...."


Again, this is part and parcel of the practice, not limited to a Buddha.

The Buddha: There is the case, Ananda, where a monk ... [6] Through the ending of the mental effluents, he remains in the effluent-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & made them manifest for himself right in the here & now. {Just as if there were a pool of water in a mountain glen -- clear,
limpid, & unsullied -- where a man with good eyesight standing on the bank could see shells, gravel, & pebbles, and also shoals of fish swimming about & resting, and it would occur to him, 'This pool of water is clear, limpid, & unsullied. Here are
these shells, gravel, & pebbles, and also these shoals of fish swimming about & resting.'

In the same way, the monk discerns, as it is actually present, that 'This is
stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress...
This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are effluents... This is
the origination of effluents... This is the cessation of effluents... This is the
way leading to the cessation of effluents.' His heart, thus knowing, thus seeing,
is released from the effluent of sensuality, released from the effluent of becoming, released from the effluent of ignorance. With release, there is the
knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled,
the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'}
-- SN LI.26 {+ DN 2}

(6) "Through the extinction of all cankers (ásavakkhaya) even in this very life
he enters into the possession of deliverance of mind, deliverance through wisdom, after having himself understood and realized it.''
-- D. 34

And this corresponds to the 3rd ATP: that which produces the asavas
have become extinct.
And of these powers, this is certainly the most important.

There is nothing on the TTP list that cannot be found in the ATP list. In other
words, the content of the TTP list is, in fact, not unique or exclusive to the
Buddha.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:20 am

pilgrim wrote:A Buddha is an arahant, but not all arahants are Buddhas, just one.
But, as the above shows, all arahants are awake, buddha.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Postby DarwidHalim » Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:54 am

Another view from Bhikku Bodhi may give us some additional informations:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ttvas.html

I quote some from point IV. How the Buddha is distinguished from other arahants

"Tathāgata powers (see MN I 70-71), which include the knowledge of the diverse inclinations of beings (sattānaṃ nānādhimuttikataṃ yathābhūtaṃ ñāṇaṃ) and the knowledge of the degree of maturity of the faculties of other beings (parasattānaṃ parapuggalānaṃ indriyaparopariyattaṃ yathābhūtaṃ ñāṇaṃ). Such types of knowledge enable the Buddha to understand the mental proclivities and capacities of any person who comes to him for guidance, and to teach that person in the particular way that will prove most beneficial, taking full account of his or her character and personal circumstances. He is thus "the unsurpassed trainer of persons to be tamed." Whereas arahant disciples are limited in their communicative skills, the Buddha can communicate effectively with beings in many other realms of existence, as well as with people from many different walks of life. This skill singles him out as "the teacher of devas and humans."

Thus we can see the respects in which the Buddha and disciple arahants share certain qualities in common, above all their liberation from all defilements and from all bonds connecting them to the round of rebirths. And we also see how the Buddha is distinguished from his disciples, namely: (1) by the priority of his attainment, (2) by his function as teacher and guide, and (3) by his acquisition of certain qualities and modes of knowledge that enable him to function as teacher and guide. He also has a physical body endowed with thirty-two excellent characteristics and with other marks of physical beauty. These inspire confidence in those who rely on beauty of form."

I just use my common sense.
Buddha is perfect in any directions. Arahant only perfect in certain directions.

Regarding Buddha is Arahant, it does concur with my sense and logic
BUT
Regarding Arahant is Buddha, sorry it doesn't concur with my sense and logic.

Will someone say
Taking (or Going) for refuge in the Arahant, Dhamma, and Sangha?

You are free and welcome to do it.

But, will WE hear it in the temple? Let's WITNESS when that day will come.

:namaste:
Last edited by DarwidHalim on Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:01 am

Greetings Darwid,

DarwidHalim wrote:Will someone say
Taking (or Going) for refuge in the Arahant, Dhamma, and Sangha?

No they won't, because that would be unnecessarily pedantic.

As is this topic...

:roll:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:07 am

DarwidHalim wrote:Buddha is perfect in any directions. Arahant only perfect in certain directions.
Maybe, but as the the texts make quite clear, the bodhi is no different.

Later forms of Buddhism draw extreme distinctions between the Buddhas and the arahants, but in the Nikayas this distinction is not as sharp as one might expect if one takes the later texts as the benchmark of interpretation. On the one hand, the Buddha is an arahant, as is evident from the standard verse of homage to the Blessed One; on the other, arahants are buddhas, in the sense that they have attainted full enlightenment, sambodhi, by awakening to the same truths that the Buddha himself realized.A Buddha has the function of discovering and expounding the path, and he also possesses a unique familiarity with the intricacies of the path not shared by his disciples. His disciples follow the path he reveals and attain enlightenment afterward, under his guidance. IN THE BUDDHA’S WORDS, trans by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Page 382.

Jake Davis:

Maintaining a definition of arahant as one completely pure of unskillful intentions, the Pali texts depict the Buddha’s own awakening [bodhi] to be the same in nature as that of any arahant, though distinguished, of course, by being the first. STRONG ROOTS by Jake Davis page 45 http://www.dharma.org/bcbs/Pages/docume ... gRoots.pdf
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:20 am

retrofuturist wrote: unnecessarily pedantic.

As is this topic...
On the other hand, I have just presented a rather detailed look, via the suttas, at the question of bodhi vis a vis the Buddha and the arahant, which I would think would be of interest to those who are interested in what the suttas say about such things. It presents a very radical view of how the Buddha regarded awakening, and I weould think it would be something welcomed by those who are not too interested in what they see as watered down commentarial Buddhism, not mention the what Mahayana does with the Buddha and the arahants. Pedantic? I would say: learned.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:22 am

DarwidHalim wrote:I just use my common sense.

I would say that the suttas trump your "common sense." You really need to reread what I wrote with some care. You are still not quite getting it.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:30 am

DarwidHalim wrote:
Ven Bodhi wrote:Another view from Bhikku Bodhi may give us some additional informations:
Thus we can see the respects in which the Buddha and disciple arahants share certain qualities in common, above all their liberation from all defilements and from all bonds connecting them to the round of rebirths. And we also see how the Buddha is distinguished from his disciples, namely: (1) by the priority of his attainment, (2) by his function as teacher and guide, and (3) by his acquisition of certain qualities and modes of knowledge that enable him to function as teacher and guide. He also has a physical body endowed with thirty-two excellent characteristics and with other marks of physical beauty. These inspire confidence in those who rely on beauty of form."
This is exactly what I am saying. Keep in mind, DarwidHalim, that (1) by the priority of his attainment, (2) by his function as teacher and guide, and (3) by his acquisition of certain qualities and modes of knowledge that enable him to function as teacher and guide are not bodhi.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:31 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Pedantic?

Nothing wrong with your posts... they're straight down the line.

Its Darwid's original offering and subsequent argumentation that seems pedantic from here.

I admire your patience in response to it...

:popcorn:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:34 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Pedantic?

Nothing wrong with your posts... they're straight down the line.

Its Darwid's original offering and subsequent argumentation that seems pedantic from here.

I admire your patience in response to it...

:popcorn:

Metta,
Retro. :)
Thanks.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Postby pilgrim » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:38 am

tiltbillings wrote:
pilgrim wrote:A Buddha is an arahant, but not all arahants are Buddhas, just one.
But, as the above shows, all arahants are awake, buddha.

Yes the arahants are awake and share the same realisation of the Four Noble Truths as the Buddha. But arahants are not Buddhas. Arahants are arahants. They do not have the other 8 great qualities of the Buddha. Itipiso bhagava ....
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:46 am

pilgrim wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
pilgrim wrote:A Buddha is an arahant, but not all arahants are Buddhas, just one.
But, as the above shows, all arahants are awake, buddha.

Yes the arahants are awake and share the same realisation of the Four Noble Truths as the Buddha. But arahants are not Buddhas. Arahants are arahants. They do not have the other 8 great qualities of the Buddha. Itipiso bhagava ....
And arahants are tathagata and awake, buddha, as the suttas themselves clearly say. There is an extremely important point here. While later Buddhists tended to, to varying degrees, elevate the Buddha, they actually did so at the expense of the arahant. In this, I would rather look to the suttas and we see something very radical in what the Buddha is saying here.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Postby acinteyyo » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:37 am

Hi DarwidHalim, all,

there are a lot of different terms and it seems to me that some terms weren't carefully distinguished which leads to confusion.

"Buddha" is primarily simply an appellation for "one who has attained awakening". Ususally when we talk about the "Buddha", we're talking about the perfectly awakened one (sammā sambuddha), Prince Siddhattha Gotama. This should not be mixed up.

"Arahant" (holy One) is an appellation for one who is free from the 10 fetters, free from greed, hatred and delusion, has attained awakening by realizing the 4 noble truths.

"Tathāgata (One thus gone) is an epithet of the Buddha used by him when speaking of himself.

An Arahant (holy One) or a Tathāgata (One thus gone) is "one who has attained awakening" may therefore also be called a "Buddha".

"Sammā sambuddha" a perfectly awakened one by whom the liberating law (dhamma) which had become lost to the world, has again been discovered, realized and clearly proclaimed to the world.

"Pacceka buddha" an independently awakened one is an individual who realized the truths, the liberating law by himself without hearing it ever from someone else. But the independently awakened one doesn't have the ability to proclaim and teach the dhamma clearly to the world like a perfectly awakened one (sammā sambuddha). (There's a simile of a dumb and deaf man who tasted a flavour which has not been tasted by anyone else. He knows the flavour but is unable to tell anyone else about it.)

"Awakening" (or "Enlightenment", but I prefer the first) is called "bodhi".

The Arahant (holy One), a Tathāgata (One thus gone) and a Buddha (One who has attained awakening) all realized the four noble truths, freed themselves from greed, hatred and delusion. Their "bodhi" is not different essentially, they all attained Nibbāna.

But there are some differentiations regarding "bodhi". Differentiations in designation not in essence!
"Sāvaka bodhi" (awakening of a noble disciple) is the description for the awakening of a disciple who realized the truths taught by the perfectly awakened one (sammā sambuddha).
"Pacceka-bodhi" (indipendent awakening) is the description for the awakening of independently awakend one.
"Sammā-sambodhi" (perfect awakening) is the description for the awakening of a perfectly awakened one. "Now, someone, in things never heard before, understands by himself the truth, and he therein attains omniscience, and gains mastery in the powers. Such a one is called a perfectly awakened One" [Pug.29]

With respect to the mastery in the powers of the Sammā-sambuddha or the powers of the Tathāgata, who is able of what, in what degree or how is considered by myself as unnecessary differentiation. Because in the end:
M22 wrote:Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.

Maybe this helps in some way, but I'm afraid this will go on just for the sake of discussion...

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.

:anjali:
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