Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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DarwidHalim
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Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Post by DarwidHalim »

Dear Members,

I am just curious. In daily life, we start our day by saying
We are taking refuge in The Buddha,
We are taking refuge in The Dhamma,
We are taking refuge in The Sangha.

Some of us have a thinking that Buddha = Arahant

For those people who supportthis view, do you say this
We are taking refuge in The Arahant,
We are taking refuge in The Dhamma,
We are taking refuge in The Sangha

If no why? Since some of you have the understanding that Arahant = Buddha.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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tiltbillings
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Post by tiltbillings »

One does not "take" refuge; one goes for refuge.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Post by tiltbillings »

DarwidHalim wrote: Some of us have a thinking that Buddha = Arahant
In terms of bodhi, awakening, the Buddha stated:

Sammasambuddha Sutta:

At Saavatthi. "Bhikkhus, the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, liberated by nonclinging through revulsion towards form (feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness), through its fading away and cessation is called a perfectly Enlightened One. A bhikkhu liberated by wisdom, liberated by nonclinging through revulsion towards form (feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness), through its fading away and cessation is called one liberated by wisdom.

[Here we have an equivalency between the Buddha and the arahants in terms of attainment, and acknowledging this equivalency, the Buddha then asks:]

Therein, bhikkhus, what is the distinction, what is the disparity, what is the difference between the Tathaagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One and a bhikkhu liberated by wisdom? ...

The Tathagata, monks, who, being Arahant, is fully awakened, it is he who causes a way to arise which has not arisen before; who proclaims a way not proclaimed before; who is a knower of a way, who understands a way, who is skilled in a way. And now, monks, his disciples are wayfarers who follow after him. That, monks, is the distinction, the specific feature which distinguished the Tathagata who, being arahant, is fully awakened, from the monk who is freed by insight. SN III 66.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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DarwidHalim
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Post by DarwidHalim »

tiltbillings wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote: Some of us have a thinking that Buddha = Arahant
In terms of bodhi, awakening, the Buddha stated:

Sammasambuddha Sutta:

At Saavatthi. "Bhikkhus, the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, liberated by nonclinging through revulsion towards form (feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness), through its fading away and cessation is called a perfectly Enlightened One. A bhikkhu liberated by wisdom, liberated by nonclinging through revulsion towards form (feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness), through its fading away and cessation is called one liberated by wisdom.

[Here we have an equivalency between the Buddha and the arahants in terms of attainment, and acknowledging this equivalency, the Buddha then asks:]

Therein, bhikkhus, what is the distinction, what is the disparity, what is the difference between the Tathaagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One and a bhikkhu liberated by wisdom? ...

The Tathagata, monks, who, being Arahant, is fully awakened, it is he who causes a way to arise which has not arisen before; who proclaims a way not proclaimed before; who is a knower of a way, who understands a way, who is skilled in a way. And now, monks, his disciples are wayfarers who follow after him. That, monks, is the distinction, the specific feature which distinguished the Tathagata who, being arahant, is fully awakened, from the monk who is freed by insight. SN III 66.
This sutta doesn't imply Tathagata = Arahant.

If you look into this work "liberated by nonclinging through revulsion towards form (feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness), through its fading away and cessation", these words are valid and SHARED BY Tathaghata, Arahant, The Perfectly Enlighten One, AND BHIKKU LIBERATED BY WISDOM.

If you have that quoted statement in the definition inside Tathagata and Bhikku liberated by wisdom, why they still differentiate Tathagata with Bhikku liberated by Wisdom????

It also doesn't say Tathagata = Arahant.

In the second statement : "The Tathagata, monks, who, being Arahant, ..." is not necessary equivalent to "The Arahant, monks, who, being Tathagata, ..."

Tathagata can be a monk, a bhikku, a arahant, or even a beggar.

But, thinking Arahant can be a Tathagata, is not implied by that sutta.
Last edited by DarwidHalim on Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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retrofuturist
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Darwid,

What do these epithets in the aforementioned sutta mean to you then... "the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One"

:?:

What about "namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa" (Honour to the Blessed One, the Arahant, the fully Enlightened One.)?

If it disturbs you that the Buddha is an Arahant, perhaps you might find more alignment with your views at...

Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum)
http://www.dharmawheel.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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DarwidHalim
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Post by DarwidHalim »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Darwid,

What do these epithets in the aforementioned sutta mean to you then... "the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One"

:?:

What about "namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa" (Honour to the Blessed One, the Arahant, the fully Enlightened One.)?

If it disturbs you that the Buddha is an Arahant, perhaps you might find more alignment with your views at...

Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum)
http://www.dharmawheel.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
First of all, it doesn't affect me at all whether Tathagata = Arahant or Tathagata is not the same with Arahant. This is just for the sake of discussion.

Assuming nobody knows who is Tathagata, Arahant, and Perfectly Enlightened One.

When I see the structure of the sentences of
""Bhikkhus, the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, liberated by nonclinging through revulsion towards form (feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness), through its fading away and cessation is called a perfectly Enlightened One. A bhikkhu liberated by wisdom, liberated by nonclinging through revulsion towards form (feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness), through its fading away and cessation is called one liberated by wisdom."

To me it is more likely similar with this:
The Doctor, The Engineer, The Human, xxxx is called a Human. An athlete who can run, xxxx, is called the one who can run.

Simply sharing same quality inside xxxx doesn't mean The Doctor = The Engineer = The Human.

They share ONLY specific quality to be able to called them Doctor, The Engineer, or the Human.

Similarly, because they have "liberated by nonclinging through revulsion towards form (feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness), through its fading away and cessation", they are qualified to be called Tathagatha, Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, or A Bhikku liberated by wisdom.

IT doesn't imply that Tathagatha = Arahant = Perfectly Enlightened One = Bhikku liberated by Wisdom.

I found there are a lot of weird things if I assume Tathagata = Arahant.
1. During buddha's life, a lot of his students have achieve arahant while they still alive. If Tathagata = Arahant, it mean their view or knowlede is ABSOLUTY similar with the Buddha. Why they still asked Buddha? Do you think they want to test the knowledge of buddha whether their knowledge is the same the student or not?

2. Why NONE of Pali text mentioned Arahant Sakyamuni and none of them mentioned Buddha Sariputta? If you think they are the same, why do you need this word, Arahant and Buddha. Please show me if you find one.

3. Like you mentioned "namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa" (Honour to the Blessed One, the Arahant, the fully Enlightened One.)? If Buddha = Arahant, why we don't just mention namo tassa bhagavato ONLY or namo arahato ONLY, or namo Samma Sambuddhasa ONLY? Do you think it is nice to have long statement saying the same thing?

4. Why you don't take refuge or going for refuge to Arahant, Dhamma, and Sangha, instead Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha, if they are same? Will you say it loud in your temple? Dare to do it, just to test they are same when they ask you?

When you go through these, you will find many contradictions and feel weird thing.

LAstly, it doesn't matter whether Buddha = Arahant or Buddha is not Arahant. We won't affect enlightenement path.

I just found for the sake of definition, it may be benefial if we know the EXACT definition through these contradictions.
Last edited by DarwidHalim on Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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tiltbillings
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Post by tiltbillings »

DarwidHalim wrote:This sutta doesn't imply Tathagata = Arahant.

That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is asankhata, free from the conditioned." SN IV 359 and SN IV 362

That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is nibbana. SN IV 251 and IV 321

The destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion is arahantship. SN IV 252.

"Whoever frees himself from the passions of greed, hatred, and ignorance, they call him, one who is self developed, made divine, thus-gone (tathagata), awake (buddha), one who has left fear and hatred, and one who has let go of all." Itivuttaka 57
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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ground
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Post by ground »

DarwidHalim wrote:This is just for the sake of discussion.
I do not doubt that. It serves no purpose other than this.

Kind regards
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tiltbillings
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Post by tiltbillings »

DarwidHalim wrote:First of all, it doesn't affect me at all whether Tathagata = Arahant or Tathagata is not the same with Arahant. This is just for the sake of discussion.
I can only shrug my shoulders. You have been repeatedly pushing a Mahayana/Vajrayana point of view, not knowing at all the radical teachings of the Buddha that the Mahayana/Najrayana actually lost. You might actually learn something here if you take the time to actually listen to others here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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DarwidHalim
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Post by DarwidHalim »

tiltbillings wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote:This sutta doesn't imply Tathagata = Arahant.

That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is asankhata, free from the conditioned." SN IV 359 and SN IV 362

That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is nibbana. SN IV 251 and IV 321

The destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion is arahantship. SN IV 252.

"Whoever frees himself from the passions of greed, hatred, and ignorance, they call him, one who is self developed, made divine, thus-gone (tathagata), awake (buddha), one who has left fear and hatred, and one who has let go of all." Itivuttaka 57
I admire you ability to quote statements from certain sutta. But that quatation cannot solve the questions I pose to the forum.

In buddhism you cannot learn (in my opinion) by taking the statement from 1 sutta, and then other one from another sutta.

I believe you know this: Inside Pali text, 1 statement of sutta can be contradicting with another statement from other sutta. This is why even inside Theravada they share different view.

We need to penetrate inside the statement and see what is this contradiction, why they contradict.

We will get lost by the face value. At least it has happened to me in the past.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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tiltbillings
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Post by tiltbillings »

DarwidHalim wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote:This sutta doesn't imply Tathagata = Arahant.

That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is asankhata, free from the conditioned." SN IV 359 and SN IV 362

That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is nibbana. SN IV 251 and IV 321

The destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion is arahantship. SN IV 252.

"Whoever frees himself from the passions of greed, hatred, and ignorance, they call him, one who is self developed, made divine, thus-gone (tathagata), awake (buddha), one who has left fear and hatred, and one who has let go of all." Itivuttaka 57
I admire you ability to quote statements from certain sutta.
The point is simple enough. The Buddha clearly used the term tathagata and buddha in reference to the arahant, and he made it quite clear that the bodhi he attained is no different from that of the arahant. You have not shown otherwise.

Also, you show quite clearly that you do not understand what the word bodhi means, as the Buddha used it. You are lecturing us from a place of ignorance.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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DarwidHalim
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Post by DarwidHalim »

tiltbillings wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote:First of all, it doesn't affect me at all whether Tathagata = Arahant or Tathagata is not the same with Arahant. This is just for the sake of discussion.
I can only shrug my shoulders. You have been repeatedly pushing a Mahayana/Vajrayana point of view, not knowing at all the radical teachings of the Buddha that the Mahayana/Najrayana actually lost. You might actually learn something here if you take the time to actually listen to others here.
It doesn't give me any benefits to push you Mahayana/Vajrayana view. I study buddhism through contradiction. When I am in Mahayana forum, they will called me Theravada freak.

I am not Mahayanist or Theravadist. They simply contrain my mind, bring to benefit to myself.

I took my precept with Ajahn Brahmn. Am I Theravadist? I took my vow with Lama Zopa, am I Vajrayanist? I am not none of them.

But I go to this forum to humbly request your all members opinion about the contradiction in buddhism.

We will learn a lot thorugh this contradiction challenge/ debate.

I simply ask the critical comments, not the personal attack.

Nothing personal at the end, we are simply learning.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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tiltbillings
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Post by tiltbillings »

DarwidHalim wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote:First of all, it doesn't affect me at all whether Tathagata = Arahant or Tathagata is not the same with Arahant. This is just for the sake of discussion.
I can only shrug my shoulders. You have been repeatedly pushing a Mahayana/Vajrayana point of view, not knowing at all the radical teachings of the Buddha that the Mahayana/Najrayana actually lost. You might actually learn something here if you take the time to actually listen to others here.
It doesn't give me any benefits to push you Mahayana/Vajrayana view. I study buddhism through contradiction. When I am in Mahayana forum, they will called me Theravada freak.
The problem is that you conflate the Mahayana and the Theravada, mixing them up, making a mess of things, as you did when you said: Arahant still have things to learn. They have not reach buddhahood, but they have definitely free from rebirth.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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ground
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Post by ground »

DarwidHalim wrote: But I go to this forum to humbly request your all members opinion about the contradiction in buddhism.

We will learn a lot thorugh this contradiction challenge/ debate.
There is no contradiction other than that you are creating for yourself. That's fine if you cause for yourself that which you seem to need. But you should not request others to share the contradictions you caused for your own purpose.


Kind regards
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DarwidHalim
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Re: Taking refuge in Buddha??????

Post by DarwidHalim »

TMingyur wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote: But I go to this forum to humbly request your all members opinion about the contradiction in buddhism.

We will learn a lot thorugh this contradiction challenge/ debate.
There is no contradiction other than that you are creating for yourself. That's fine if you cause for yourself that which you seem to need. But you should not request others to share the contradictions you caused for your own purpose.


Kind regards
Then, what is the use of this forum if one of the purpose is not through asking, whether it is in contradiction form or other forms? They are some people who feel it as personal. It is up to them. I respect their respond.

Btw, IS THIS FORUM USED FOR PRAISING EACH OTHER?

Ok, please help to answer those questions if you know so I can learn from you.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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