Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.

Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:16 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:So the issue of "sectarian factionalism" is built into Vimalaramsi's teachings.

It may be built into venerable Vimalaramsi reasons for adopting a suttanta method or even built in to what he says about other modes of meditation, but that doesn't necessitate "sectarian factionalism" in the actual practice of the actual method he teaches (which is, again, what jhana4 has claimed to be interested in here).

:meditate:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14717
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:24 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:So the issue of "sectarian factionalism" is built into Vimalaramsi's teachings.

It may be built into venerable Vimalaramsi reasons for adopting a suttanta method or even built in to what he says about other modes of meditation, but that doesn't necessitate "sectarian factionalism" in the actual practice of the actual method he teaches (which is, again, what jhana4 has claimed to be interested in here).
But it certainly calls Vimalaramsi's whole enterprise into question. As I have said, from what I have heard him say about actual practice, there are far better teachers out there.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19748
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:36 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:So the issue of "sectarian factionalism" is built into Vimalaramsi's teachings.

It may be built into venerable Vimalaramsi reasons for adopting a suttanta method or even built in to what he says about other modes of meditation, but that doesn't necessitate "sectarian factionalism" in the actual practice of the actual method he teaches (which is, again, what jhana4 has claimed to be interested in here).

The factionalism seems to be built into the the OP of this topic:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 55#p134831
According to Venerable Vimalaramsi the instructions from the commentaries leave some important steps out. In this video Venerable Vimalaramsi explains how to meditate using the instructions from the suttas and he explains how to get the extra value from these missing steps.

And other topics such as:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=7375
It goes some way to explaining why some people may legitimately prefer a suttanta method of meditation over that of one based upon post-Buddha teachings. Frankly, I find it refreshing to see a monk have the courage to defend the primacy of the Buddha's teaching, against the traditional backdrop of accumulated post-Buddha perspectives.

As Tilt and others have pointed out:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 40#p117374
there appear to be a lot of factual errors in those videos.

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10531
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:43 am

Greetings Mike,

Evidently what he says about the commentaries etc. rankles those who place stock in those things. I think that's perfectly clear by now... but that's not what jhana4 wants to talk about.

How about we either talk about what jhana4 wants to talk about, or sit on our hands?

jhana4 wrote:I originally started the thread because I was intrigued by the video and was wondering how the rubber met the road with his teachings. Instead I got a lot of people posting factionalist gripes. I understand why they are offended, but I was curious about the results of that meditation, not the other stuff. You gave what I wanted, some feedback about the method from someone who used it. Thank you.

:focus:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14717
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:49 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,

Evidently what he says about the commentaries etc. rankles those who place stock in those things.
Well, it rankles when Vimalaramsi grossly misrepresents/distorts the commentaries, the Visuddhimagga, and other teachers, and that certainly deserves a response.

As for the OP, maybe Jhana4 -- or you -- can outline what he sees as Vimalaramsi's unique method.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19748
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:50 am

Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:Well, it rankles when Vimalaramsi grossly misrepresents/distorts the commentaries, the Visuddhimagga, and other teachers, and that certainly deserves a response.

And has been made (repeatedly)...

:focus:

tiltbillings wrote:As for the OP, maybe Jhana4 -- or you -- can outline what he sees as Vimalaramsi's unique method.

That would be of relevance...

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14717
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:55 am

retrofuturist wrote:Evidently what he says about the commentaries etc. rankles those who place stock in those things.

:jumping:

Not much of an excuse for ignoring obvious errors.

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10531
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:55 am

:focus:
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14717
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Postby Jhana4 » Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:21 pm

I don't know anything about the commentaries, the abhidhamma or various writers/teachers views on these works. This uninvolvement makes me feel pretty detached about anything the teacher in the original post may have said about these works. It sounds like it could be an educational debate with all of the details laid out in another thread. As I stated a few times, I started this thread to hear about experiences people have had with this teachers meditation method. I don't care about the other issues. Should I ever read the commentaries and related materials I will be able to decide what I think for myself......possibly with the aide of another thread where those issues are hashed out.

I would like to thank everyone who took the time to type in a response to my original post and the original on topic subject of this thread.....the dude's meditation method.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
 
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:07 am

Jhana4 wrote: I don't care about the other issues.
Maybe you should at least some idea of the issues involved.



I would like to thank everyone who took the time to type in a response to my original post and the original on topic subject of this thread.....the dude's meditation method.[/quote]So, what exactly is this method?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19748
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Postby Jhana4 » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:23 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Jhana4 wrote: I don't care about the other issues.
Maybe you should at least some idea of the issues involved.


I might read the commentaries some day. Right now I don't have the interest, I don't have the time, I am happy with what I am getting with the suttas, I'm happy getting what I am with my practice and I have a lot of interesting works about meditation I want to read.


tiltbillings wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:
I would like to thank everyone who took the time to type in a response to my original post and the original on topic subject of this thread.....the dude's meditation method.
So, what exactly is this method?


The best answer I could give you would be to tell you to watch the video at the beginning of this thread.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
 
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:29 am

Jhana4 wrote: I might read the commentaries some day. Right now I don't have the interest, I don't have the time, I am happy with what I am getting with the suttas, I'm happy getting what I am with my practice and I have a lot of interesting works about meditation I want to read.
It is not the issue of disagreeing with the commentaries, it is lack of integrity in the way he does it and in the way he dismisses other teachers.


tiltbillings wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:
I would like to thank everyone who took the time to type in a response to my original post and the original on topic subject of this thread.....the dude's meditation method.
So, what exactly is this method?


The best answer I could give you would be to tell you to watch the video at the beginning of this thread.
I have, but I am asking you so that there can be a basis for discussion here.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19748
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Postby thelotuseffect » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:34 am

tiltbillings wrote:So, what exactly is this method?


Well what I learned was how to handle distractions from meditation. When a hindrance arises there are 6 steps to purifying mind: 1st is to recognize a hindrance has arose, 2nd is to release the hindrance by not paying attention to it, 3rd is to relax tension caused by the hindrance, 4th is to re-smile (kindle happiness in your heart), 5th is to return to your object of meditation, 6 is to repeat this process until arahantship. It sounds like a lot but it turns into a single motioned habit.
thelotuseffect
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:46 am

Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:53 am

thelotuseffect wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:So, what exactly is this method?


Well what I learned was how to handle distractions from meditation. When a hindrance arises there are 6 steps to purifying mind: 1st is to recognize a hindrance has arose, 2nd is to release the hindrance by not paying attention to it, 3rd is to relax tension caused by the hindrance, 4th is to re-smile (kindle happiness in your heart), 5th is to return to your object of meditation, 6 is to repeat this process until arahantship. It sounds like a lot but it turns into a single motioned habit.
And how is this different from what other teachers teach?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19748
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Postby thelotuseffect » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:57 am

:shrug: Depends on who we're talking about really.
thelotuseffect
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:46 am

Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:59 am

thelotuseffect wrote::shrug: Depends on who we're talking about really.
One of Vimalaramsi's targets for disdain is Mahasi Sayadaw's method.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19748
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Postby thelotuseffect » Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:09 am

Is that vipassana meditation or what?
thelotuseffect
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:46 am

Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:10 am

thelotuseffect wrote:Is that vipassana meditation or what?
Yes.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19748
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Postby thelotuseffect » Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:17 am

Well Vipassana notes all arising and passing away phenomena. Noting all phenomena is not a step in Bhante V's method. The only noticing occurs during the event of a hindrance and then purifying that before coming back to your meditation object.
thelotuseffect
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:46 am

Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:19 am

thelotuseffect wrote:Well Vipassana notes all arising and passing away phenomena. Noting all phenomena is not a step in Bhante V's method. The only noticing occurs during the event of a hindrance and then purifying that before coming back to your meditation object.
So?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19748
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

PreviousNext

Return to Theravada Meditation

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests