Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

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tiltbillings
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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by tiltbillings »

Jhana4 wrote: Instead I got a lot of people posting factionalist gripes.
factionalist gripes. That is how you would characterize objections to his rather corrosive approach to other teachers and methods?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mikenz66
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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by mikenz66 »

Jhana4 wrote: I originally started the thread because I was intrigued by the video and was wondering how the rubber met the road with his teachings. Instead I got a lot of people posting factionalist gripes. .
The problem is that it seems to be difficult to discuss Bhante V's teachings without having to contend with factionalistic claims (from him and others) that the rest of the Theravada tradition got it wrong.

It might be an interesting topic of discussion for another thread why a few teachers, and/or their supporters, generate such discord, whereas most don't. I don't recall anyone saying:
"Here's a teaching from Ajahn Chah, who is the only teacher worth listening to...".
Probably because Ajahn Chah (and any number of teachers) completely avoid an abrasive approach.

[By the way, Ajahn Chah is someone I respect but don't pay that much attention to.]

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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by alan »

He seems like a bad cartoon character. Hard to take seriously, and slightly pathetic.
What is a factionalist gripe? I might want to have one of those some day. Could come in handy.
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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,

Though I believe Ajahn Chah upset(s) Abhidhammists.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,

Though I believe Ajahn Chah upset(s) Abhidhammists.

Metta,
Retro. :)
The chicken shit story?

On the other hand, I never heard of Ajahn Chah being repeatedly dismissive of other teachers, stating or implying -- dismissily -- that they got it wrong.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mikenz66
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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Though I believe Ajahn Chah upset(s) Abhidhammists.
I don't see that at all. You can find stories where people who either had too much or too little book learning were steered in the opposite direction. He is quoted as saying "the only book reading is the heart" to those thinking/studying too much and making comments about acting like a buffalo to those who thought too little. And clearly he had a deep knowledge both of theory and practice.

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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by mikenz66 »

tiltbillings wrote: On the other hand, I never heard of Ajahn Chah being repeatedly dismissive of other teachers, stating or implying -- dismissily -- that they got it wrong.
I agree. What he did (and any good teacher does) was to point out where particular students were going wrong. That's completely different from criticising and/or dismissing other teachers.

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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
mikenz66 wrote:Ajahn Chah (and any number of teachers) completely avoid an abrasive approach
retrofuturist wrote:Though I believe Ajahn Chah upset(s) Abhidhammists.
mikenz66 wrote:I don't see that at all.
tiltbillings wrote:The chicken shit story?
Yes, that's the one Tilt.

I can't seem to find it online but meindzai recounts it here... "His teachings come across as very personal, rather than mechanical, and he seems to have really disliked Abhidhamma. (Comparing it once to going to a chicken shack and removing the shit rather than the eggs)." - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 46#p116588" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyway, as jhana4 said, he doesn't want this to be about sectarian factionalism.

:focus:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by pegembara »

[So now you see the differences. And you really see them because you are having the direct experience. You see them for yourself whether what I am teaching you is correct or not. By reading the suttas so you know what it says about each jhana, you know what the experience is. So you won’t have to believe me. I don’t want you to believe me. I want you to believe your own experience.] Bh V

[No one can know the Dhamma for another. We can chant, read, discuss and listen, but unless we watch all that arises, we will not know the Dhamma by ourselves. There's only one place where Dhamma can be known, in one's own heart and mind. It has to be a personal experience which comes about through constant observation of oneself. Meditation helps. Unless one inquires into one's own reactions and knows why one wants one thing and rejects another, one hasn't seen Dhamma.] Ayya Khema

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each for themselves."] The Buddha
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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote: Anyway, as jhana4 said, he doesn't want this to be about sectarian factionalism.
And as Mike says: "The problem is that it seems to be difficult to discuss Bhante V's teachings without having to contend with factionalistic claims (from him and others) that the rest of the Theravada tradition got it wrong. " The talks (videos) by him that have been posted here are interwoven with "sectarian factionalism":
Even today if you go to teachers of one-pointed concentration and ask them: “How does craving arise?” Or you ask them: “What is craving?” They can’t tell you. “Craving is desire.” “Let go of all desire.” [A gesture of” huh?] But they are serious; that is what they tell you. I know because I asked many, many very big monks this question and that’s the answer they give me. They don’t know how craving arises; they don’t know how to recognize it when it does arise; they don’t know how to let it go. Now, doesn’t that sound a little bit different from what I am teaching?

. . .

So, you have to understand I studied the Visuddhimagga for 20 years.. I have had very many intelligent teachers [dramatic hand gesture of dismissal]. http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 40#p117352" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So the issue of "sectarian factionalism" is built into Vimalaramsi's teachings.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:So the issue of "sectarian factionalism" is built into Vimalaramsi's teachings.
It may be built into venerable Vimalaramsi reasons for adopting a suttanta method or even built in to what he says about other modes of meditation, but that doesn't necessitate "sectarian factionalism" in the actual practice of the actual method he teaches (which is, again, what jhana4 has claimed to be interested in here).

:meditate:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:So the issue of "sectarian factionalism" is built into Vimalaramsi's teachings.
It may be built into venerable Vimalaramsi reasons for adopting a suttanta method or even built in to what he says about other modes of meditation, but that doesn't necessitate "sectarian factionalism" in the actual practice of the actual method he teaches (which is, again, what jhana4 has claimed to be interested in here).
But it certainly calls Vimalaramsi's whole enterprise into question. As I have said, from what I have heard him say about actual practice, there are far better teachers out there.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:So the issue of "sectarian factionalism" is built into Vimalaramsi's teachings.
It may be built into venerable Vimalaramsi reasons for adopting a suttanta method or even built in to what he says about other modes of meditation, but that doesn't necessitate "sectarian factionalism" in the actual practice of the actual method he teaches (which is, again, what jhana4 has claimed to be interested in here).
The factionalism seems to be built into the the OP of this topic:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 55#p134831" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
According to Venerable Vimalaramsi the instructions from the commentaries leave some important steps out. In this video Venerable Vimalaramsi explains how to meditate using the instructions from the suttas and he explains how to get the extra value from these missing steps.
And other topics such as:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=7375" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It goes some way to explaining why some people may legitimately prefer a suttanta method of meditation over that of one based upon post-Buddha teachings. Frankly, I find it refreshing to see a monk have the courage to defend the primacy of the Buddha's teaching, against the traditional backdrop of accumulated post-Buddha perspectives.
As Tilt and others have pointed out:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 40#p117374" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
there appear to be a lot of factual errors in those videos.

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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,

Evidently what he says about the commentaries etc. rankles those who place stock in those things. I think that's perfectly clear by now... but that's not what jhana4 wants to talk about.

How about we either talk about what jhana4 wants to talk about, or sit on our hands?
jhana4 wrote:I originally started the thread because I was intrigued by the video and was wondering how the rubber met the road with his teachings. Instead I got a lot of people posting factionalist gripes. I understand why they are offended, but I was curious about the results of that meditation, not the other stuff. You gave what I wanted, some feedback about the method from someone who used it. Thank you.
:focus:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Video: Meditation: Suttas vs Commentaries

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,

Evidently what he says about the commentaries etc. rankles those who place stock in those things.
Well, it rankles when Vimalaramsi grossly misrepresents/distorts the commentaries, the Visuddhimagga, and other teachers, and that certainly deserves a response.

As for the OP, maybe Jhana4 -- or you -- can outline what he sees as Vimalaramsi's unique method.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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