Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:This use of "own experience" and "speculative" line, which basically shuts down any possibility of discussion.
I don't see any shutting down of discussion here... just the intellectual and spiritual integrity to differentiate between what one has known and seen for oneself (i.e. knowledge, ñana), versus what one believes, but has not personally confirmed.... so that when engaging in discussions, other people know the basis upon which you speak.
Kalama Sutta wrote:"So, as I said, Kalamas: 'Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, "This contemplative is our teacher." When you know for yourselves that, "These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering" — then you should abandon them.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.
"Now, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them.
Such distinctions between what one has known and seen for oneself (i.e. knowledge, ñana), versus what one believes, but has not personally confirmed exist during discussions between participants in the suttas. I find it somewhat incongruent that you perceive it to be "shut[ting] down any possibility of discussion" when it happens in an online forum. I genuinely do not understand why you regard it as such. For example...
"My friend, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding,' still I am not an arahant whose fermentations are ended. It's as if there were a well along a road in a desert, with neither rope nor water bucket. A man would come along overcome by heat, oppressed by the heat, exhausted, dehydrated, & thirsty. He would look into the well and would have knowledge of 'water,' but he would not dwell touching it with his body. In the same way, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding,' still I am not an arahant whose fermentations are ended."
When this was said, Ven. Ananda said to Ven. Pavittha, "When he speaks in this way, friend Pavittha, what do you have to say about Ven. Narada?"
"When Ven. Narada speaks in this way, friend Ananda, I have nothing to say about Ven. Narada except that [he is] admirable & skillful."
Source:
SN 12.68 -
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There is a person who has given up false speech and abstains from it. When he is in the council of his community or in another assembly, or among his relatives, his guild, in the royal court, or has been summoned as a witness and is asked to tell what he knows, then, when he knows, he will say, “I know”; and when he does not know he will say, “I do not know”; when he has seen, he will say, “I have seen”; and when he has not seen, he will say, “I have not seen.” He will not utter any deliberate lie, be it for his own sake, for the sake of others or for some material advantage.
Source:
AN 10.206 -
http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh238-p.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If I were to say, "rebirth is true" that would be speculative, because I do not know.
If I were to say, "rebirth is taught in the Theravada tradition" that would not be speculative, because I know.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."