Reincarnation

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
alan
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Re: Reincarnation

Post by alan »

One hundred dollars to the first person who can decipher what chownah said, and make it sound reasonable.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Reincarnation

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Alan,
alan wrote:One hundred dollars to the first person who can decipher what chownah said, and make it sound reasonable.
Until you have become an arahant, it's possible to think in terms of asmi (I am) over time - whether that time be moments, or lives.

This mana (conceit) is obscured and self-justified to whatever extent the truth of "sabbe dhamme anatta" has yet to be penetrated.

To the extent there are thoughts of "I am", what is being called "rebirth" is really being conceived as "reincarnation", regardless of the words used.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Reincarnation

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote: Chownah ~ if you've not read anything by him before, I'd strongly encourage you to investigate the works of Bhikkhu Nanananda. He approaches the Dhamma from a deep, subtle perspective, and I think you'll find his insights complementary to your investigations.
Ven Nanananda. And he does not reject rebirth (at least in his early major writings).
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: Reincarnation

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote: Chownah ~ if you've not read anything by him before, I'd strongly encourage you to investigate the works of Bhikkhu Nanananda. He approaches the Dhamma from a deep, subtle perspective, and I think you'll find his insights complementary to your investigations.
Ven Nanananda. And he does not reject rebirth (at least in his early major writings).
Non-sequitir.

Why would he reject rebirth? The falsity of rebirth is a speculative view that cannot be verified.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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ground
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Re: Reincarnation

Post by ground »

So what then is actually the meaning of what the Buddha taught and what is conventionally translated as "re-birth"?
From what has been written so far it may appear that it is easy to say what it is not but then what is it?
Why would the Buddha teach using speach and concepts when that the concepts shall refer to cannot be grasped conceptually?


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retrofuturist
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Re: Reincarnation

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings TMingyur,
TMingyur wrote:So what then is actually the meaning of what the Buddha taught and what is conventionally translated as "re-birth"?
I would challenge your implicit assumption that they are one and the same thing.
TMingyur wrote:From what has been written so far it may appear that it is easy to say what it is not but then what is it?
That will depend on what word the Buddha used.
TMingyur wrote:Why would the Buddha teach using speach and concepts when that the concepts shall refer to cannot be grasped conceptually?
Who is to say they can't?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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ground
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Re: Reincarnation

Post by ground »

Why has he taught about hells and lower birth states resulting from wrongdoing? Fear mongering and fooling his audience?


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ground
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Re: Reincarnation

Post by ground »

retrofuturist wrote:
TMingyur wrote:So what then is actually the meaning of what the Buddha taught and what is conventionally translated as "re-birth"?
I would challenge your implicit assumption that they are one and the same thing.
I said "conventionally translated as" ... this is an observation not an assumption.
retrofuturist wrote:
TMingyur wrote:From what has been written so far it may appear that it is easy to say what it is not but then what is it?
That will depend on what word the Buddha used.
But we do not know since the words transmitted are not his own.
retrofuturist wrote:
TMingyur wrote:Why would the Buddha teach using speach and concepts when that the concepts shall refer to cannot be grasped conceptually?
Who is to say they can't?
Assuming that the nuances of meanings of pali words comply with what the buddha actually taught (which is a matter of belief) one may want to caution people against buddhism if they have not studied pali before in order to be able to study the original pali suttas. Because otherwise they may either fall prey to belief in "literal" rebirth and its concomitant fear-mongering or they may erroneously reject kamma theory altogether.


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mikenz66
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Re: Reincarnation

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote: Why would he reject rebirth? The falsity of rebirth is a speculative view that cannot be verified.
As Tilt says, Ven Nananda appears to follow a fairly standard line on kamma and rebirth in his Nibbana seminars. His point of difference is separating it from Dependent Origination.

You having your opinion on the subject is perfectly fine, but from my memory it doesn't match what Ven Nananada expresses. I could be misremembering, of course...

:anjali:
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retrofuturist
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Re: Reincarnation

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings TMingyur,
TMingyur wrote:Why has he taught about hells and lower birth states resulting from wrongdoing? Fear mongering and fooling his audience?
I think that's best explained by the following sutta...

MN 60: Apannaka Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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ground
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Re: Reincarnation

Post by ground »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

More words bundled under the banner of English banner of "rebirth"...

abhinibbatti
punabbhava
upapannā
opapātikā
upapajjati
upapatti
sopapajjati
ponobhavika
upapatti-bhava
patisandhi
jati
What would be more appropriate translations of these terms (other than "re-birth")?

If it is true that it can be grasped by concepts then there must be better translations.

kind regards
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retrofuturist
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Re: Reincarnation

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:As Tilt says, Ven Nananda appears to follow a fairly standard line on kamma and rebirth in his Nibbana seminars. His point of difference is separating it from Dependent Origination.
What I don't get, is why you and Tilt seem to interpret what I'm saying as rebirth denial. Sometimes it seems as if anything short of proclaiming "hurrah for literal post-mortem rebirth" from the hilltops gets interpreted this way. The issue is far more subtle and detailed than the black and white treatment the subject often receives, and I think Chownah's insightful observation is testament to some of that subtlety which is commonly overlooked, and commonly derailed when the matter is crudely framed as a pro vs anti rebirth debate.

To be clear, I'm not looking to over-ride anything venerable Nanananda has said or discovered through his textual analysis and insights.
mikenz66 wrote:You having your opinion on the subject is perfectly fine, but from my memory it doesn't match what Ven Nananada expresses. I could be misremembering, of course...
I'll wait until I'm confident you have grasped the opinion I've stated, before responding to this one. The specific relevance of Nanananda to this topic is his treatment of bhava and vibhava, as distinct to analyses on kamma, rebirth or dependent origination.

For example: From Nibbana Sermon 19 - http://www.beyondthenet.net/calm/nibbana19.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Saïkhata, or the prepared, is like a floral design. This prepared floral design, which is bhava, or existence, is made up, as it were, with the help of the glue of craving, the tangles of views and the knots of conceits. If one removes the glue, disentangles the tangles and unties the knots, the saïkhata, or the prepared, itself becomes asaïkhata, the unprepared, then and there. The same floral design, which was the saïkhata, has now become the asaïkhata. This itself is the cessation of existence, bhavanirodho. When one can persuade oneself to think of Nibbàna as an extinguishment, the term parinibbàna can well be understood as `perfect extinguishment'.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Reincarnation

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote: Why would he [Ven Nanananda] reject rebirth? The falsity of rebirth is a speculative view that cannot be verified.
Actually, he talks about rebirth in his brilliant books as a given part of the framework of the Buddha's teachings.

Unlike trying to prove the "falsity" of rebirth," knowledge of rebirth, like nibbana, is something that is open, in the Buddha's teachings, to one's direct experience.

And as for my msg being a non sequitur, not really.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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ground
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Re: Reincarnation

Post by ground »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings TMingyur,
TMingyur wrote:Why has he taught about hells and lower birth states resulting from wrongdoing? Fear mongering and fooling his audience?
I think that's best explained by the following sutta...

MN 60: Apannaka Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
I think that the conceptual contradiction is just shifted to another terminological level. But to shift the issue is not to explain it in a way that it is conceptually graspable. It is just replacing terms and terminology.
e.g. what is "the next world"? "Literally" or not?


Kind regards
Last edited by ground on Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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kirk5a
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Re: Reincarnation

Post by kirk5a »

retrofuturist wrote: To the extent there are thoughts of "I am", what is being called "rebirth" is really being conceived as "reincarnation", regardless of the words used.
Just wanted to point out that this would occur when there is the "underlying tendency to conceit" (one of the 'anusayas') which is more subtle than "I am" thoughts. See MN64.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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