Reincarnation
Re: Reincarnation
One hundred dollars to the first person who can decipher what chownah said, and make it sound reasonable.
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Re: Reincarnation
Greetings Alan,
This mana (conceit) is obscured and self-justified to whatever extent the truth of "sabbe dhamme anatta" has yet to be penetrated.
To the extent there are thoughts of "I am", what is being called "rebirth" is really being conceived as "reincarnation", regardless of the words used.
Metta,
Retro.
Until you have become an arahant, it's possible to think in terms of asmi (I am) over time - whether that time be moments, or lives.alan wrote:One hundred dollars to the first person who can decipher what chownah said, and make it sound reasonable.
This mana (conceit) is obscured and self-justified to whatever extent the truth of "sabbe dhamme anatta" has yet to be penetrated.
To the extent there are thoughts of "I am", what is being called "rebirth" is really being conceived as "reincarnation", regardless of the words used.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Reincarnation
Ven Nanananda. And he does not reject rebirth (at least in his early major writings).retrofuturist wrote: Chownah ~ if you've not read anything by him before, I'd strongly encourage you to investigate the works of Bhikkhu Nanananda. He approaches the Dhamma from a deep, subtle perspective, and I think you'll find his insights complementary to your investigations.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Reincarnation
Greetings Tilt,
Why would he reject rebirth? The falsity of rebirth is a speculative view that cannot be verified.
Metta,
Retro.
Non-sequitir.tiltbillings wrote:Ven Nanananda. And he does not reject rebirth (at least in his early major writings).retrofuturist wrote: Chownah ~ if you've not read anything by him before, I'd strongly encourage you to investigate the works of Bhikkhu Nanananda. He approaches the Dhamma from a deep, subtle perspective, and I think you'll find his insights complementary to your investigations.
Why would he reject rebirth? The falsity of rebirth is a speculative view that cannot be verified.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Reincarnation
So what then is actually the meaning of what the Buddha taught and what is conventionally translated as "re-birth"?
From what has been written so far it may appear that it is easy to say what it is not but then what is it?
Why would the Buddha teach using speach and concepts when that the concepts shall refer to cannot be grasped conceptually?
Kind regards
From what has been written so far it may appear that it is easy to say what it is not but then what is it?
Why would the Buddha teach using speach and concepts when that the concepts shall refer to cannot be grasped conceptually?
Kind regards
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Re: Reincarnation
Greetings TMingyur,
Metta,
Retro.
I would challenge your implicit assumption that they are one and the same thing.TMingyur wrote:So what then is actually the meaning of what the Buddha taught and what is conventionally translated as "re-birth"?
That will depend on what word the Buddha used.TMingyur wrote:From what has been written so far it may appear that it is easy to say what it is not but then what is it?
Who is to say they can't?TMingyur wrote:Why would the Buddha teach using speach and concepts when that the concepts shall refer to cannot be grasped conceptually?
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Reincarnation
Why has he taught about hells and lower birth states resulting from wrongdoing? Fear mongering and fooling his audience?
Kind regards
Kind regards
Re: Reincarnation
I said "conventionally translated as" ... this is an observation not an assumption.retrofuturist wrote:I would challenge your implicit assumption that they are one and the same thing.TMingyur wrote:So what then is actually the meaning of what the Buddha taught and what is conventionally translated as "re-birth"?
But we do not know since the words transmitted are not his own.retrofuturist wrote:That will depend on what word the Buddha used.TMingyur wrote:From what has been written so far it may appear that it is easy to say what it is not but then what is it?
Assuming that the nuances of meanings of pali words comply with what the buddha actually taught (which is a matter of belief) one may want to caution people against buddhism if they have not studied pali before in order to be able to study the original pali suttas. Because otherwise they may either fall prey to belief in "literal" rebirth and its concomitant fear-mongering or they may erroneously reject kamma theory altogether.retrofuturist wrote:Who is to say they can't?TMingyur wrote:Why would the Buddha teach using speach and concepts when that the concepts shall refer to cannot be grasped conceptually?
Kind regards
Re: Reincarnation
Hi Retro,
You having your opinion on the subject is perfectly fine, but from my memory it doesn't match what Ven Nananada expresses. I could be misremembering, of course...
Mike
As Tilt says, Ven Nananda appears to follow a fairly standard line on kamma and rebirth in his Nibbana seminars. His point of difference is separating it from Dependent Origination.retrofuturist wrote: Why would he reject rebirth? The falsity of rebirth is a speculative view that cannot be verified.
You having your opinion on the subject is perfectly fine, but from my memory it doesn't match what Ven Nananada expresses. I could be misremembering, of course...
Mike
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Re: Reincarnation
Greetings TMingyur,
MN 60: Apannaka Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Metta,
Retro.
I think that's best explained by the following sutta...TMingyur wrote:Why has he taught about hells and lower birth states resulting from wrongdoing? Fear mongering and fooling his audience?
MN 60: Apannaka Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Reincarnation
What would be more appropriate translations of these terms (other than "re-birth")?retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
More words bundled under the banner of English banner of "rebirth"...
abhinibbatti
punabbhava
upapannā
opapātikā
upapajjati
upapatti
sopapajjati
ponobhavika
upapatti-bhava
patisandhi
jati
If it is true that it can be grasped by concepts then there must be better translations.
kind regards
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Re: Reincarnation
Greetings Mike,
To be clear, I'm not looking to over-ride anything venerable Nanananda has said or discovered through his textual analysis and insights.
For example: From Nibbana Sermon 19 - http://www.beyondthenet.net/calm/nibbana19.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Retro.
What I don't get, is why you and Tilt seem to interpret what I'm saying as rebirth denial. Sometimes it seems as if anything short of proclaiming "hurrah for literal post-mortem rebirth" from the hilltops gets interpreted this way. The issue is far more subtle and detailed than the black and white treatment the subject often receives, and I think Chownah's insightful observation is testament to some of that subtlety which is commonly overlooked, and commonly derailed when the matter is crudely framed as a pro vs anti rebirth debate.mikenz66 wrote:As Tilt says, Ven Nananda appears to follow a fairly standard line on kamma and rebirth in his Nibbana seminars. His point of difference is separating it from Dependent Origination.
To be clear, I'm not looking to over-ride anything venerable Nanananda has said or discovered through his textual analysis and insights.
I'll wait until I'm confident you have grasped the opinion I've stated, before responding to this one. The specific relevance of Nanananda to this topic is his treatment of bhava and vibhava, as distinct to analyses on kamma, rebirth or dependent origination.mikenz66 wrote:You having your opinion on the subject is perfectly fine, but from my memory it doesn't match what Ven Nananada expresses. I could be misremembering, of course...
For example: From Nibbana Sermon 19 - http://www.beyondthenet.net/calm/nibbana19.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Metta,Saïkhata, or the prepared, is like a floral design. This prepared floral design, which is bhava, or existence, is made up, as it were, with the help of the glue of craving, the tangles of views and the knots of conceits. If one removes the glue, disentangles the tangles and unties the knots, the saïkhata, or the prepared, itself becomes asaïkhata, the unprepared, then and there. The same floral design, which was the saïkhata, has now become the asaïkhata. This itself is the cessation of existence, bhavanirodho. When one can persuade oneself to think of Nibbàna as an extinguishment, the term parinibbàna can well be understood as `perfect extinguishment'.
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Reincarnation
Actually, he talks about rebirth in his brilliant books as a given part of the framework of the Buddha's teachings.retrofuturist wrote: Why would he [Ven Nanananda] reject rebirth? The falsity of rebirth is a speculative view that cannot be verified.
Unlike trying to prove the "falsity" of rebirth," knowledge of rebirth, like nibbana, is something that is open, in the Buddha's teachings, to one's direct experience.
And as for my msg being a non sequitur, not really.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Reincarnation
I think that the conceptual contradiction is just shifted to another terminological level. But to shift the issue is not to explain it in a way that it is conceptually graspable. It is just replacing terms and terminology.retrofuturist wrote:Greetings TMingyur,I think that's best explained by the following sutta...TMingyur wrote:Why has he taught about hells and lower birth states resulting from wrongdoing? Fear mongering and fooling his audience?
MN 60: Apannaka Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Metta,
Retro.
e.g. what is "the next world"? "Literally" or not?
Kind regards
Last edited by ground on Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Reincarnation
Just wanted to point out that this would occur when there is the "underlying tendency to conceit" (one of the 'anusayas') which is more subtle than "I am" thoughts. See MN64.retrofuturist wrote: To the extent there are thoughts of "I am", what is being called "rebirth" is really being conceived as "reincarnation", regardless of the words used.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230