[...] about a monk he knows who was staying in Haein Temple, when Zen Master Seong Chol was still alive. The monk left the temple to do a long retreat in the Jiri Mountainsand was living off what ever he could find in the forested slopes.
After eating something he shouldn’t have, maybe a poisonous mushroom or something else inedible, he became seriously ill and collapsed on the ground. He came to awareness back in Haein Temple, about 100km or more away and saw two of his friends in the hall doing what seemed like a death ceremony. They didn’t seem to notice him and he found it curious that instead of reciting the appropriate sutras, the monk with the mok-tak (a wooden percussion instrument) was repeating the word, “Chek, chek, chek…” (“Book, book, book…”) and the monk with the bell kept repeating, “Yeom ju, yeom ju, yeom ju…” (“prayer beads, prayer breads, prayer beads…”)
In a flash, he was in his mother’s house. He was standing next to her as she was loading wood in the fire. She didn’t notice him so he reached over and touched her shoulder. She let out a shriek and crumpled over in pain.
Just as he had found himself at the temple, then at his mother’s, he was standing back in the mountain. He noticed the scent of bulgogi, marinated beef, wafting up from the river bank and a group of men in white hanbok (traditional Korean clothes) calling, “Hey! Come down and join us, there’s plenty to go around!” Just as he was about to join them he remembered he is a monk and shouldn’t eat meat.
Making his way back into the hills, he came across an old man with an old fashion jigae, a wooden A-frame carrying rack, on his back. But instead of carrying wood, he was carrying a man down the mountain. He put the man down on the ground and the monk, thinking the man looked familiar, went over to take a closer look. As he stared at the man’s face, he couldn’t get over how much the man looked like himself. He touched the body and at that instant, his consciousness was sucked into the body, and he woke up with a jerk. He was laying near the village where he’d seen the old man put the body. He was also probably feeling a little disoriented from the strange experience he’d just had.
Returning to the temple, he went to his friends and told them about what he had seen. They replied that Seong Cheol Sunim spoke to them that he had died in the Jiri Mountains and that they should perform a death ceremony immediately. He continued, telling them that they were chanting the words “book” and “prayer beads” instead of the proper sutra’s they should have been chanting. Surprised, the first one admitted that he knew the monk had a collection of really nice books and was wondering if he could have them. A bit ashamed, his second friend also admitted that he was thinking about the monk’s nice “yeom ju” and also wondering if he could have it. So, even though they were speaking the mantra, all that he could hear from them was their thoughts.
He visited his mother and told her of the experience. She replied that she remembered a sudden sharp pain in her shoulder.
Going back to the stream in the mountain, where he’d seen the men eating bulgogi, he found no remnants of barbecue. What he did see disturbed him though. Laying by the river bank was the corpse of a magpie, entirely infested with maggots. He realized that what appeared to him as men by the river were actually larva calling him to dine on the flesh of the dead bird. He wondered if he hadn’t reminded himself that he was a monk and had instead joined them, would he have been reborn as the larva of a fly? How difficult would it have been to work his way back to being born in human form again? When he left his body, he had no ears, no eyes, no nose, no tongue, no hands. All he was left with was his perception and his illusion of what surrounded him. He couldn’t hear words, only intentions.
While the dictionary is the place to start to understanmd these words, there actual meanings are seen in terms of how they are actually used.retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
More words bundled under the banner of English banner of "rebirth"...
.... I wonder if any mean "reincarnation"?
Whatever they do mean, I doubt they all mean exactly the same thing.
The problem is that there are those for whom the idea of literal rebirth is something of a problem and they seem to want to insist that words indicating rebirth supposedly do not mean it literally, thusly this sort of constant attempt at redefining the Dhamma by a one-eyed point of view.chownah wrote:I
I thought that reincarnation and rebirth would not need defining...so here is what I see as the main points which are relevant to what I'm trying to get at.
chownah wrote:I thought that reincarnation and rebirth would not need defining...so here is what I see as the main points which are relevant to what I'm trying to get at.
Reincarnation is the belief that there are spirits, souls, personalities, selves which incarnate (manifest in a body) from time to time......that is a soul which for example after the death of one body will after a time (or perhaps immediately) re-establish itself in another body. The key idea here is an eternal soul/spirit/self which can exist without a body but which manifests in a body form time to time.
Rebirth is what the Buddha taught....there is no soul/spirit/self involved as far as I have been able to tell from what the Buddha taught primarily in that the Buddha taught to have no doctrine of self whatever which sort of rules out the soul/spirit/self idea. (there are other reasons too)
mikenz66 wrote:Hi chownah,
3. something else?
alan wrote:One hundred dollars to the first person who can decipher what chownah said, and make it sound reasonable.
Ven Nanananda. And he does not reject rebirth (at least in his early major writings).retrofuturist wrote:Chownah ~ if you've not read anything by him before, I'd strongly encourage you to investigate the works of Bhikkhu Nanananda. He approaches the Dhamma from a deep, subtle perspective, and I think you'll find his insights complementary to your investigations.
tiltbillings wrote:Ven Nanananda. And he does not reject rebirth (at least in his early major writings).retrofuturist wrote:Chownah ~ if you've not read anything by him before, I'd strongly encourage you to investigate the works of Bhikkhu Nanananda. He approaches the Dhamma from a deep, subtle perspective, and I think you'll find his insights complementary to your investigations.
TMingyur wrote:So what then is actually the meaning of what the Buddha taught and what is conventionally translated as "re-birth"?
TMingyur wrote:From what has been written so far it may appear that it is easy to say what it is not but then what is it?
TMingyur wrote:Why would the Buddha teach using speach and concepts when that the concepts shall refer to cannot be grasped conceptually?
retrofuturist wrote:TMingyur wrote:So what then is actually the meaning of what the Buddha taught and what is conventionally translated as "re-birth"?
I would challenge your implicit assumption that they are one and the same thing.
retrofuturist wrote:TMingyur wrote:From what has been written so far it may appear that it is easy to say what it is not but then what is it?
That will depend on what word the Buddha used.
retrofuturist wrote:TMingyur wrote:Why would the Buddha teach using speach and concepts when that the concepts shall refer to cannot be grasped conceptually?
Who is to say they can't?
retrofuturist wrote:Why would he reject rebirth? The falsity of rebirth is a speculative view that cannot be verified.
TMingyur wrote:Why has he taught about hells and lower birth states resulting from wrongdoing? Fear mongering and fooling his audience?
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