The Great Jhana Debate

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Freawaru
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby Freawaru » Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:36 am


Freawaru
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Re: Tha jhana debate

Postby Freawaru » Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:48 am


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daverupa
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Re: Tha jhana debate

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Freawaru
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Re: Tha jhana debate

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Re: Tha jhana debate

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Alex123
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Re: Tha jhana debate

Postby Alex123 » Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:59 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Tha jhana debate

Postby Sylvester » Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:56 pm


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reflection
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby reflection » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:49 pm

Guys, still throwing with suttas? ;) We don't even know for sure whether the Buddha spoke Pali. (now don't go and debate this here :tongue: )

But come on Alex, it can be quite clear what the Buddha meant with jhana has nothing to do with absorption in a book or 'flow' or something like that. The jhanas are the peaks of meditative development. The suttas seem to say the formless attainments aren't even needed to become fully enlightened, that's how strong the jhanas must be. It's ridiculous to think you can just attain this without being aware of it, let alone forgetting it... If "absorption" in the 5 sense activities would be samma samadhi, thousands of people would have become enlightened while watching television. ;)

Jhana is absorption in the 6th sense, the mind. Nothing more, and certainly nothing less. The 5 senses are gone, all thoughts are gone, the sense of time is gone and the will to influence the process is gone also. It's just awareness of the mind itself, totally unlike anything else, like another dimension. And it'll be one of the strongest memories you'll have.

Now, its importance in the first stages of the development can be discussed, however we shouldn't underestimate the actual experience.

With metta,
Reflection

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Alex123
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby Alex123 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:37 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Alex123
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby Alex123 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:40 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Sylvester
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby Sylvester » Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:38 am


Nyana
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby Nyana » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:10 am


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reflection
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby reflection » Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:39 am

Last edited by reflection on Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:17 am, edited 3 times in total.

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mikenz66
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:01 am


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reflection
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby reflection » Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:31 am


Nyana
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby Nyana » Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:45 pm


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reflection
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby reflection » Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:12 pm

Hi Geoff,

:namaste:

I am not saying other members don't know about this subject, but I think a debate should serve a purpose other than just trying to be right. So I try to encourage people, I'm not trying set them aside as inexperienced. I'm sorry if my intention wasn't clear enough. I do that because I think the quote below is only really possible having experienced absorption, when the mind saw the mind.

"Remain contemplating mind in mind, ardent, fully aware, unified, with a limpid mind, composed, with singleness of mind, in order to know the mind as it really is."

Likewise, it's quite hard to contemplate how an engine works without ever having opened the bonnet of a car to look at it. We can argue about the interpretation of the suttas, but I've said before why I don't think that will do a lot. They can easily be interpreted both ways depending on how one wants to read them.

With metta,
Reflection
Last edited by reflection on Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby Nyana » Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:27 pm


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reflection
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby reflection » Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:48 pm


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beeblebrox
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby beeblebrox » Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:59 pm

Maybe I missed something, but isn't the point of jhana is to create an ideal condition for yourself from which you can do the vipassana, i.e. to see clearly the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta... and also to see the unfolding of the paticca sammupada... which leads to liberation? Practicing the jhana for its own sake just seems pointless to me. It's not samma-samadhi... just a wrongly directed concentration.

:anjali:


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