Why would people do that ?

[tiltbillings]

Yes, we definately all make mistakes, especially me. However, we should be feeling compassion and metta in our hearts, instead of condemnation for Element who cannot answer in the thread for himself. Personally in the last 3 years or so on the internet I have never seen him making claims of personal attainments.

Does compassion mean that we allow him to post what he likes, disregarding forum rules, directly insulting and attacking users who disagree with him via PMs? Also, nick/element certainly can respond for himself. We have left his most recent sign-in, in violation of forum rules, stand: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=8598" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As for his supposed attainment, I certainly could be wrong, but I do believe that he laid claim to such on E-Sangha and has alluded to such here, but if he were to tell me that he has not ever claimed ariya status, then I'll be be happy to retract my statement and to publicly apologize. No problem.

But, geez, Aloka, forgive us and have some compassion on us if we see that these repeated incursions and deceptions by nick/element as being time wasting attacks on the forum. How would you like it if someone spent a great deal of time playing with your forum these sorts games nick/element is playing here? Maybe you can talk to your friend about stopping this bad behavior.

[Modus.Ponens]

The golden rule in dealing with trolls is not feeding them, so this discussion is only making it worse (involuntarily of course).

[tiltbillings]

The golden rule in dealing with trolls is not feeding them, so this discussion is only making it worse (involuntarily of course).

Not necessarily. As I said, it will have, at least, the virtue of informing the user base here that this is going on and it will help people understand why when an element sockpuppet is banned. As for the troll, it really has not mattered what we do, he just keeps coming back. Shining light on trolls may not be a bad thing.

[PeterB]

The golden rule in dealing with trolls is not feeding them, so this discussion is only making it worse (involuntarily of course).

Not necessarily. As I said, it will have, at least, the virtue of informing the user base here that this is going on and it will help people understand why when an element sockpuppet is banned. As for the troll, it really has not matter what we do, he just keeps coming back. Shining light on trolls may not be a bad thing.

And as has been pointed out a lot of his most virulent activity is carried on behind the scenes via PM.

[Aloka]

Yes, we definately all make mistakes, especially me. However, we should be feeling compassion and metta in our hearts, instead of condemnation for Element who cannot answer in the thread for himself. Personally in the last 3 years or so on the internet I have never seen him making claims of personal attainments.

Does compassion mean that we allow him to post what he likes, disregarding forum rules, directly insulting and attacking users who disagree with him via PMs? Also, nick/element certainly can respond for himself. We have left his most recent sign-in, in violation of forum rules, stand: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=8598" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As for his supposed attainment, I certainly could be wrong, but I do believe that he laid claim to such on E-Sangha and has alluded to such here, but if he were to tell me that he has not ever claimed ariya status, then I'll be be happy to retract my statement and to publicly apologize. No problem.

But, geez, Aloka, forgive us and have some compassion on us if we see that these repeated incursions and deceptions by nick/element as being time wasting attacks on the forum. How would you like it if someone spent a great deal of time playing with your forum these sorts games nick/element is playing here? Maybe you can talk to your friend about stopping this bad behavior.

Hiyah Tilt,

I forgive you and "us" my son and will pray for y'all! ... _/\_

Seriously though, I've had all sorts of problems with people at my forum both publicly and privately by pm, including being publicly challenged, as well as condemned to the hell realms and told terrible things are ahead because of my karma - and received crazy e-mail harassment from Vajrayana practioners who couldn't handle my change over to Theravada and so on and so forth.

Its the nature of human beings and the internet though, isn't it ! I'm really not into feuding though, I like to try to be friends with everyone and I've only ever permanently banned one person and that was because as well as the nasty forum postings, his private interactions with me were starting to get really creepy.

As for Element -yes I regard him as a friend - but I certainly don't monitor his movements on the internet, not do I have any control over what he does.


with kind wishes to all,

Aloka

[tiltbillings]

I'm really not into feuding though, I like to try to be friends with everyone and I've only ever permanently banned one person myself and that was because his private interactions with me were starting to get really creepy.

Dhamma Wheel is a bit more active than is your forum, so likely we are going to have to deal with a bit more of this than you. Fortunately there are not a lot of problems, but the majority of time spent dealing with problems has been spent around one person. From our standpoint this is not a "feud," but it is a waste of time having to deal with element's creepy behavior. As i said, there may be virtue in shining light on this trollish behavior. So far nothing else has worked.

[Akuma]

I sometimes think the older I get the less I understand.
Why would someone repeatedly crash a site they are banned from ( two sites in fact ) ?
Why would they adopt a range of nics and re-enter a site just to cause problems for that site ?
I can understand getting banned , and then slipping under the radar and continuing to post while keeping your nose clean.
I am baffled by those who rejoin a forum in order simply to pick fights....While still professing an interest in Dhamma...

Theres no better way not to come into contact with that uncertainty inside of oneself than to engage in endless discussions in which one can convince oneself that one has answers.

[Aloka]

I sometimes think the older I get the less I understand.

Why .........

Why .........

phpBB .

[tiltbillings]

As for Element -yes I regard him as a friend - but I certainly don't monitor his movements on the internet, not do I have any control over what he does.

Only element/nick is responsible for his actions, but since you are his friend -- so you say --, why don't you ask why he is so persistent in making an unpleasant pest of himself. That would speak directly to the OP and maybe we can be understand this annoying behavior.

[PeterB]

I guess we have all been there.
Stuck between loyalty, and defending the clearly indefensible.
And 100 double nicks and concomitant sneering and fraudulent ( in the sense of pretending to come from people unknown to the receiver ) Personal Messages IS indefensible.

[Aloka]

As for Element -yes I regard him as a friend - but I certainly don't monitor his movements on the internet, not do I have any control over what he does.

Only element/nick is responsible for his actions, but since you are his friend -- so you say --, why don't you ask why he is so persistent in making an unpleasant pest of himself. That would speak directly to the OP and maybe we can be understand this annoying behavior.

You should ask him yourself in a kind rather than hostile way and perhaps you might find out.

Please don't keep laying this whole thing at my feet Tilt, it really isn't fair. I live on the other side of the world to Element.

If I had the answers I'd tell you.

[tiltbillings]

As for Element -yes I regard him as a friend - but I certainly don't monitor his movements on the internet, not do I have any control over what he does.

Only element/nick is responsible for his actions, but since you are his friend -- so you say --, why don't you ask why he is so persistent in making an unpleasant pest of himself. That would speak directly to the OP and maybe we can be understand this annoying behavior.

You should ask him yourself in a kind rather than hostile way and perhaps you might find out.

Please don't keep laying this whole thing at my feet Tilt, it really isn't fair. I live on the other side of the world to Element.

If I had the answers I'd tell you.

I am not laying anything at your feet. I responding to the fact that you are essentisally defending your self described friend for his repeated disruptive behavior on this forum.

As you suggest, I'll ask him kindly why he is doing this:

Element/Nick, is there something we did in our finally banning you after due process for your repeated violations of the TOS that upset you such that you feel it is necessary for you to attack this forum with your repeated incursions and decptions?

[Aloka]

I am not laying anything at your feet. I responding to the fact that you are essentisally defending your self described friend for his repeated disruptive behavior on this forum.

Where have I done that ? I have tried to point out that there might be kinder ways of doing things, that's all.

I also would prefer not to be involved with this any longer, thanks.

[tiltbillings]

I am not laying anything at your feet. I responding to the fact that you are essentially defending your self described friend for his repeated disruptive behavior on this forum.

Where have I done that ? I have tried to point out that there are kinder ways of doing things, that's all.

Let me ask you directly.

Do you approve of his behavior here?

We banned him after his repeated violations of the TOS, after giving him repeated warnings, after suspending his account several times. The behavior did not change, so we banned him. After all this we should let him back in? If so why?

He has shown no kindness towards the forum management and he has shown no kindness towards the members here with his deceptions and hostile PMs. Why should we let him back? Also, we should not identify the behavior as we see it?

Why don't you condemn this behavior of his?

Basically, we would simply like his attacks on this forum to stop. So, we should say: "Please, Nick, do not attack us any more"?

[BubbaBuddhist]

Peter:

Lack of empathy (Hard to feel empathy on the Internet; you can't SEE the effects of your words on what are essentially just more words on your computer screen).

Lack of accountability (People have said things to me on the Internet which would have earned them a punch to the head if they had said it to my face and I suspect they knew it).

Lack of identity. Sociopaths can go where others fear to tread. Or something like that. In other words if you let everybody in on a forum, you're going to get everybody, including sociopaths and troublemakers. Ban, them, they'll come back under another alias.

Lack of impulse control. (Think twice before typing once was something someone told me once upon a time).

There are other reasons of course, but basically people are ornery and if you put a bunch together they'll behave badly. At least this is what history teaches us.

M4