Why would people do that ?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Post by tiltbillings »

chownah wrote:Why would people do that?

Sometimes people think that their message is urgently needed and they see attempts to censor them as just one more obstacle in the path of them delivering this urgent message. Perhaps sometimes these people are correct and they are actually doing their best to deliver a message that we could benefit from reading.....probably this is not usually the case. I know that in the past it has happened that my attempts at creating serious dialogue have been censored...and it is my view that if the dialogue had been allowed then people would have benefitted....
chownah
The issue here has not been the message. It has been behavior.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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zavk
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Post by zavk »

Hi friends

I haven't been here on DW regularly in the past few months. Will try to stop by more often. So I just want to take this opportunity to thank the mods and admins.

And re: the topic. I know of people who behave in similar ways offline, thank goodness though they are mostly friends of friends or acquaintances at best. Nothing else to add except to say...

'Whaa---? Some people are just strange, very strange.' :shrug:
With metta,
zavk
alan
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Post by alan »

Maybe these people believe their message is so important that behavior doesn't matter.
A common delusion. Just pick up a newspaper, and look at the politicians. They are usually non-aware, self-important people who have convinced themselves of the righteousness of their cause. The fact that they habitually talk nonsense doesn't bother them.
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octathlon
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Post by octathlon »

Q: Why would someone do <undesirable behavior>?
A: To defend and nourish the ego.
alan
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Post by alan »

Undesirable behavior takes many forms, not all of which can be easily explained by ego alone.
chownah
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Post by chownah »

alan wrote:Undesirable behavior takes many forms, not all of which can be easily explained by ego alone.
Alan,
That's an interesting observation...can you expound on this a bit...maybe give examples of undesirable behavior which can not be explained by ego alone? I guess its best to ignore the obvious view that the only thing that can be explained by the ego alone is the ego.
chownah
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tiltbillings
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Post by tiltbillings »

alan wrote:Maybe these people believe their message is so important that behavior doesn't matter.
I have yet to see a double nicker here that was promoting a "message." That certainly has not been the case with the person who has been the most egregious.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
chownah
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Post by chownah »

tiltbillings wrote:
alan wrote:Maybe these people believe their message is so important that behavior doesn't matter.
I have yet to see a double nicker here that was promoting a "message." That certainly has not been the case with the person who has been the most egregious.
From the little I know about this I would say that I tend to agree with you...but perhaps we just don't understand their message.......makes them even more urgent....
chownah
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Jason
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Post by Jason »

And sitting around discussing what other people do when the people in question are unable to defend themselves is somehow better? Are people really all that different?
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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PeterB
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Post by PeterB »

What about sitting around discussing what people do who sit around discussing people who cant defend themselves, who can defend themselves. Is that any better ?
What about getting all indignant about what other people are discussing is THAT any better ?
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Jason
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Post by Jason »

PeterB wrote:What about sitting around discussing what people do who sit around discussing people who cant defend themselves, who can defend themselves. Is that any better ?
What about getting all indignant about what other people are discussing is THAT any better ?
No, which is my point. We all do and say stupid things sometimes, including myself. The real question is, What's the point of publicly trashing Element/Dhamma Dhatu when he's banned and can't even comment? And is doing so really better than what he's being accused of doing? At least the participates in this thread can respond to my point, but the same can't be said for DD, and I don't think that's fair or in line with right speech. Just something to think about.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Jason
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Post by Jason »

Perhaps I should restate my point in another way. Whatever his reasons are for doing what he does, I imagine that he feels justified in doing it, and that's one of the things we all have in common: we do what we often feel justified in doing. I bet he feels justified in continuing to participate on this forum even after being banned, just as I feel justified in questioning the usefulness and fairness of this thread, and others feels justified in questioning my response. Who's really got the moral high ground here? We all probably think we do, but who's in a position to judge? The moderators here are certainly in a position to judge who has and hasn't violated the terms of service, but beyond that, why cast proverbial stones? We all err. Some may seem to do so more than others, but that shouldn't prevent us from looking at our own actions and questioning them as well, because the only heart we can ever truly know is our own.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Aloka
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Post by Aloka »

Jason wrote:Perhaps I should restate my point in another way. Whatever his reasons are for doing what he does, I imagine that he feels justified in doing it, and that's one of the things we all have in common: we do what we often feel justified in doing. I bet he feels justified in continuing to participate on this forum even after being banned, just as I feel justified in questioning the usefulness and fairness of this thread, and others feels justified in questioning my response. Who's really got the moral high ground here? We all probably think we do, but who's in a position to judge? The moderators here are certainly in a position to judge who has and hasn't violated the terms of service, but beyond that, why cast proverbial stones? We all err. Some may seem to do so more than others, but that shouldn't prevent us from looking at our own actions and questioning them as well, because the only heart we can ever truly know is our own.

Three very kind and thoughtful posts, Jason. Thank you so much for being a decent human being and the voice of reason instead of bitter accusation .

Yes, we definately all make mistakes, especially me. However, we should be feeling compassion and metta in our hearts, instead of condemnation for Element who cannot answer in the thread for himself. Personally in the last 3 years or so on the internet I have never seen him making claims of personal attainments.

In general, I think we should all look within ourselves instead of sitting around being critical here. Is there still a problem for anyone right here and now ? Let us all relax, Dhamma friends, - and breathe gently together....


Buddha said:
I. Here, monks, a disciple dwells pervading one direction with his heart filled with loving-kindness, likewise the second, the third, and the fourth direction; so above, below and around; he dwells pervading the entire world everywhere and equally with his heart filled with loving-kindness, abundant, grown great, measureless, free from enmity and free from distress.

II. Here, monks, a disciple dwells pervading one direction with his heart filled with compassion, likewise the second, the third and the fourth direction; so above, below and around; he dwells pervading the entire world everywhere and equally with his heart filled with compassion, abundant, grown great, measureless, free from enmity and free from distress.

III. Here, monks, a disciple dwells pervading one direction with his heart filled with sympathetic joy, likewise the second, the third and the fourth direction; so above, below and around; he dwells pervading the entire world everywhere and equally with his heart filled with sympathetic joy, abundant, grown great, measureless, free from enmity and free from distress.

IV. Here, monks, a disciple dwells pervading one direction with his heart filled with equanimity, likewise the second, the third and the fourth direction; so above, below and around; he dwells pervading the entire world everywhere and equally with his heart filled with equanimity, abundant, grown great, measureless, free from enmity and free from distress.

— Digha Nikaya 13

:anjali:
Last edited by Aloka on Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:35 pm, edited 6 times in total.
PeterB
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Post by PeterB »

Jason wrote:Perhaps I should restate my point in another way. Whatever his reasons are for doing what he does, I imagine that he feels justified in doing it, and that's one of the things we all have in common: we do what we often feel justified in doing. I bet he feels justified in continuing to participate on this forum even after being banned, just as I feel justified in questioning the usefulness and fairness of this thread, and others feels justified in questioning my response. Who's really got the moral high ground here? We all probably think we do, but who's in a position to judge? The moderators here are certainly in a position to judge who has and hasn't violated the terms of service, but beyond that, why cast proverbial stones? We all err. Some may seem to do so more than others, but that shouldn't prevent us from looking at our own actions and questioning them as well, because the only heart we can ever truly know is our own.
I rather thought that the discussion had become a particular person who actually DOES repeatedly breach the forum TOS and who indulges in acts of deception ( albeit of an infantile kind ) in order to attempt that deception. I dont need to look into my heart and bleed for him.
Neither do you unless you really feel the need. In which case flagellate away.
NB For reasons I would imagine, of delicacy, no one has yet mentioned the fact the particular individual concerned also fires off between joining under a new name and being rumbled, highly personalised PM's under the adopted guise of the moment. That has indeed led several times to his being rumbled. They are basically the same rants in the same style. But with a number of different names attached.
I know a number of people have received them. people who are not mods and who have not been involved in his banning.
The fact is this man has been both on the visible and invisible parts of the forum a running sore for a long time. I think the mods have been extraordinarily balanced and restrained in their reactions to him.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Why would people do that ?

Post by tiltbillings »

Jason wrote:
PeterB wrote:What about sitting around discussing what people do who sit around discussing people who cant defend themselves, who can defend themselves. Is that any better ?
What about getting all indignant about what other people are discussing is THAT any better ?
No, which is my point. We all do and say stupid things sometimes, including myself. The real question is, What's the point of publicly trashing Element/Dhamma Dhatu when he's banned and can't even comment? And is doing so really better than what he's being accused of doing? At least the participates in this thread can respond to my point, but the same can't be said for DD, and I don't think that's fair or in line with right speech. Just something to think about.
Indeed, we all do and say stupid things, sometimes. Sometimes, but with element that has been an ongoing set of disruptive/deceptive behaviors that certainly transcends an occasional lapse in judgment. Well over 100 "double nicks"/decpetive sign-up under different names is more than an occasional doing -- to use your words -- "stupid things sometimes." It is a sustained, deliberate attack on the forum, and in many instances, also against the membership.

Element has logged last night as "Insultee." We have not banned that name/IP (yet), so element can resoond to comments made (defend himself, as you say), and so we can see element, clearly identified as element, in action: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=8598" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Calling attention to the behavior may help make it stop, or, in the very least, it may help the membership understand what is happening when a "new" member mysteriously gets banned/disappears.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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