What is Wrong with Buddha Nature

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Reductor
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Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature

Postby Reductor » Sun May 22, 2011 11:50 pm


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ground
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Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature

Postby ground » Mon May 23, 2011 4:38 am


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ancientbuddhism
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Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature

Postby ancientbuddhism » Mon May 23, 2011 5:26 pm

I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)


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beeblebrox
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Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature

Postby beeblebrox » Tue May 24, 2011 1:01 am

Anatta is only used to bring a practice to the point where it becomes useful (i.e., aligned with the Dhamma... where the Buddha's teaching is maximized), but "anatta" is still not the point... sakkaya ditthi is only the first fetter.

I don't think that the Buddha ever said "anatta" straight out. (I could be wrong)... Just this: "This is impermanent, which is suffering, and therefore anatta (i.e., these shouldn't be viewed as a self)." This is only a preparation...

When one's understood the point of this practice... his doubt would be gone for good, the second fetter... and the rites are completely seen through, the third fetter... the concept of "anatta" becomes empty, the first fetter.

This person then doesn't waste his time with the idea of a "self" anymore. He's focused on paying attention, letting things go, and then not picking them up again... which means that he's seen Nibbāna.

:anjali:

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Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature

Postby Kenshou » Tue May 24, 2011 1:20 am

Last edited by Kenshou on Tue May 24, 2011 1:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

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kirk5a
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Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature

Postby kirk5a » Tue May 24, 2011 1:29 am

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature

Postby ground » Tue May 24, 2011 4:41 am


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ancientbuddhism
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Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature

Postby ancientbuddhism » Tue May 24, 2011 1:07 pm

I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)


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beeblebrox
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Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature

Postby beeblebrox » Tue May 24, 2011 3:19 pm


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kirk5a
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Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature

Postby kirk5a » Tue May 24, 2011 3:47 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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ancientbuddhism
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Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature

Postby ancientbuddhism » Tue May 24, 2011 4:42 pm

I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)


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beeblebrox
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Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature

Postby beeblebrox » Wed May 25, 2011 2:58 pm

I basically agree with what you say above... sorry for the confusion.

Of course, I never wanted to imply that anatta was non-essential... just that when it's done its purpose, then that's the time to move on with the practice. It's only the beginning. Paticca samuppada, for example, has nothing to do with "self," "no self," nor even "not self." It's a map pointing the way out of suffering.

The first link, ignorance, I think strictly has to do with the four noble truths. (Though it can seem more than that, that's really papañca, or a diffusion.) The 4NT has nothing to do with "self" either. "Self" might be a part of that ignorance (a sankhara), but it's only one part. I think it's really the easy part to get rid of, at a gross level... but of course there's still something that seems tenacious, but that shouldn't be viewed as a "self" in my opinion.

Sometimes I get the impression some people misunderstand (or are complacent) about what "anatta" is for, or what that implies. They seem to use it as a crutch. Some seem to use it in a nihilistic way, or their practices seem to be annihilationistic. (I.e., "I can make this 'self' go away with the jhanas! [sic]." Which is a bit silly, since it isn't to be viewed as a 'self' in the first place.) I thought I would shake that up a bit... I'm done with it for now.

:anjali:

Kenshou
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Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature

Postby Kenshou » Wed May 25, 2011 8:06 pm


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beeblebrox
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Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature

Postby beeblebrox » Wed May 25, 2011 9:00 pm


Kenshou
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Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature

Postby Kenshou » Thu May 26, 2011 12:45 am

I suppose my point is that since the notion of "I am" persists until the very end (though it's falsity is comprehended before that), anatta remains a worthwhile concept before stream entry as well as beyond, not merely until the first fetter is broken.

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beeblebrox
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Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature

Postby beeblebrox » Thu May 26, 2011 1:02 am

I think it's like playing baseball... the "bat" is the "self" concept. If you want to hit a ball, you'll likely have a hard time if you keep on thinking about the "bat"... or even trying to think about "not thinking about the bat" (anatta). Once you get it, you forget about the "bat."

After this, you're 100% focused on hitting the "ball" (nibbana). You might still strike out every now and then, but you're definitely a part of the team now. The "bat" becomes irrelevant... it's all about focusing on the "ball" right now. This doesn't mean that the player would go into a game without the "bat"... that would be just silly. I apologize if some of you got this impression.

The Right View is only one fold. Once it's folded, it remains folded. You can unfold it, so that you can try to improve the fold (like I tried to do with some of my posts)... but once it's folded again... it stays folded. No need to meddle with it anymore... unless you see a better way to fold.

:anjali:

Kenshou
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Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature

Postby Kenshou » Thu May 26, 2011 1:17 am

I guess I just don't get where you're coming from on this, but whatever works for you. I suspect that we have some underlying differences in view about what exactly constitutes nibbana, but that's okay.
:buddha1:

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beeblebrox
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Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature

Postby beeblebrox » Thu May 26, 2011 1:27 am


Kenshou
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Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature

Postby Kenshou » Thu May 26, 2011 1:35 am

Well, I agree with you on the first sentence. Beyond that I don't know what you're implying.

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beeblebrox
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Re: What is Wrong with Buddha Nature

Postby beeblebrox » Thu May 26, 2011 1:44 am



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