I’d like to know what Retrofuturist had in mind when he wrote that.Sylvester wrote:Oh ho ho! The never-ending dry-insight debate.
Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?
Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?
Hi Sylvester,
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?
Greetings Poitr,
I haven't read the BB essay in question, but I'm sure I've read the sutta and the footnotes of his sutta translation... coming from which, I take it that a wisdom-liberated arahant can become such without having to attain the 4th jhana... a lesser (sutta-defined) jhana will also do. Furthermore, in the Satipatthana Sutta there is potential promise of quick arahantship following the satipatthana method, but without any boilerplate text on the jhanas - the closest it gets to talk on samadhi is when the meditator tranquilizes the bodily formations through anapanasati, or when observing whether or not the seven factors for awakening are present.
Now I don't much fancy hunting around this long topic for the link to the post where I said, "Did all arahants attain to the 4th jhana? No." but if you are, and the above paragraph was insufficient for you, I'll be happy to explain the intended context further.
Metta,
Retro.
I haven't read the BB essay in question, but I'm sure I've read the sutta and the footnotes of his sutta translation... coming from which, I take it that a wisdom-liberated arahant can become such without having to attain the 4th jhana... a lesser (sutta-defined) jhana will also do. Furthermore, in the Satipatthana Sutta there is potential promise of quick arahantship following the satipatthana method, but without any boilerplate text on the jhanas - the closest it gets to talk on samadhi is when the meditator tranquilizes the bodily formations through anapanasati, or when observing whether or not the seven factors for awakening are present.
Now I don't much fancy hunting around this long topic for the link to the post where I said, "Did all arahants attain to the 4th jhana? No." but if you are, and the above paragraph was insufficient for you, I'll be happy to explain the intended context further.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?
The Suttas imply that the immaterial jhanas aren't necessary for arahants, but that (at least one of) the four jhanas delineated as sammasamadhi are necessary. In this connection, the Susima Sutta doesn't lend itself to the interpretation the Commentaries give it.retrofuturist wrote:I take it that a wisdom-liberated arahant can become such without having to attain the 4th jhana... a lesser (sutta-defined) jhana will also do.
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?
Hi Retrofuturist
Yeah, I'd like to know more about it.retrofuturist wrote:Now I don't much fancy hunting around this long topic for the link to the post where I said, "Did all arahants attain to the 4th jhana? No." but if you are, and the above paragraph was insufficient for you, I'll be happy to explain the intended context further.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...