Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:03 pm

Greetings acinteyyo,
acinteyyo wrote:I know that "something which depends on something" is a sankhāra, because it's an sankhatā dhamma. So since viññāna depends on nāma-rūpa and nāma-rūpa depends on viññāna, they're both sankhatā dhammā, so one could also say instead of going back to nāma-rūpa from viññāna that it all depends on sankhārā, which finally depends on avijja. But I'm in doubt about that... Is this how it could be understood?

I would say so.

As someone pointed out in the other topic, that aspect is just not the specific focus of that individual teaching. Just because part of the Dhamma is not included in any one particular Dhamma talk or sutta, does not make it false. If everything was in a single sutta, that's all we'd need.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:12 am

Thanks Piotr for pointing out that passage:
piotr wrote:Hi Retrofuturist,

retrofuturist wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:What about the Sutta I quoted where vedana was experienced?

Sekhas and putthujjanas experience vedana, and it was a sutta to those in training, not those who had completed it.


I think this is wrong. Take a look at Dhātuvibhanga-sutta (MN 140) where the Buddha describes how one attains nibbāna and then after that how one experiences different kind of feelings (§22-24) — essentially it's the same as in Sallatha-sutta (SN 36.6). Therefore it seems that it's not a sutta about puthujjana and sekha, but about puthujjana and arahant.

Here is the relevant part:
MN 140 wrote:24. “If he feels a pleasant feeling, he feels it detached; if he feels a painful feeling, he feels it detached; if he feels a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he feels it detached. When he feels a feeling terminating with the body, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with the body.’ When he feels a feeling terminating with life, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with life.’ He understands: ‘On the dissolution of the body, with the ending of life, all that is felt, not being delighted in, will become cool right here.’ Bhikkhu, just as an oil-lamp burns in dependence on oil and a wick, and when the oil and wick are used up, if it does not get any more fuel, it is extinguished from lack of fuel; so too when he feels a feeling terminating with the body…a feeling terminating with life, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with life.’ He understands: ‘On the dissolution of the body, with the ending of life, all that is felt, not being delighted in, will become cool right here.’

25. “Therefore a bhikkhu possessing [this wisdom] possesses the supreme foundation of wisdom. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble wisdom, namely, the knowledge of the destruction of all suffering.

:anjali:
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:35 am

Greetings Piotr,
piotr wrote:Therefore it seems that it's not a sutta about puthujjana and sekha, but about puthujjana and arahant.

Thanks for the clarification.

In terms of dependent origination in its cessation mode, it brings also forward potentially the importance on us understanding whether avijja is temporal (like moha) or structural, and whether avijja is binary or not. I do not have a clear view on this at this point in time.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby piotr » Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:55 am

Hi Retrofuturist

retrofuturist wrote:Did all arahants attain to the 4th jhana? No.


Could you write more about it?
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Sylvester » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:58 am

piotr wrote:Hi Retrofuturist

retrofuturist wrote:Did all arahants attain to the 4th jhana? No.


Could you write more about it?



Oh ho ho! The never-ending dry-insight debate.

Does anyone have BB's paper “The Susīma-sutta and the Wisdom-Liberated Arahant” in the Journal of the Pali Text Society, published 2007? Judging from the breadth of Ajahn Brahmali's reply to that paper, I suspect BB brought out all the big guns to justify this concept by referring to only the Suttas.
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby piotr » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:37 pm

Hi Sylvester,

Sylvester wrote:Oh ho ho! The never-ending dry-insight debate.


I’d like to know what Retrofuturist had in mind when he wrote that.
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:45 pm

Greetings Poitr,

I haven't read the BB essay in question, but I'm sure I've read the sutta and the footnotes of his sutta translation... coming from which, I take it that a wisdom-liberated arahant can become such without having to attain the 4th jhana... a lesser (sutta-defined) jhana will also do. Furthermore, in the Satipatthana Sutta there is potential promise of quick arahantship following the satipatthana method, but without any boilerplate text on the jhanas - the closest it gets to talk on samadhi is when the meditator tranquilizes the bodily formations through anapanasati, or when observing whether or not the seven factors for awakening are present.

Now I don't much fancy hunting around this long topic for the link to the post where I said, "Did all arahants attain to the 4th jhana? No." but if you are, and the above paragraph was insufficient for you, I'll be happy to explain the intended context further.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby daverupa » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:07 pm

retrofuturist wrote:I take it that a wisdom-liberated arahant can become such without having to attain the 4th jhana... a lesser (sutta-defined) jhana will also do.


The Suttas imply that the immaterial jhanas aren't necessary for arahants, but that (at least one of) the four jhanas delineated as sammasamadhi are necessary. In this connection, the Susima Sutta doesn't lend itself to the interpretation the Commentaries give it.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby piotr » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:32 am

Hi Retrofuturist

retrofuturist wrote:Now I don't much fancy hunting around this long topic for the link to the post where I said, "Did all arahants attain to the 4th jhana? No." but if you are, and the above paragraph was insufficient for you, I'll be happy to explain the intended context further.


Yeah, I'd like to know more about it.
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