Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:26 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:What is interesting is that an not yet dead arahnt's khandhas obviously function.

The perception of khandas is itself the delusion perpetuated by sankharas, which are perpetuated by avijja, Tilt. That is what the sutta above tells you, and I what I have been unsuccessfully trying to tell you throughout this correspondence.
Goodness. First of all the khandhas are a way of talking about experience. No need to take them as things or some sort of absolutes, and the delusion is taking them as self-referential things. The point of practice is seeing just that; however, that does not mean that the idea of "khandhas" cannot be useful tool in getting at what is going on in one's experience. Obviously the Buddha thought so.

For you to say, "a not yet dead arahnt's khandhas obviously function" means that you obviously do not see khandas as formations, formed by avijja.
What is formed by ignorance is the misapprehension of a tool as being something other what it is.

Now, I will quote you something from another author (whose name shall not be mentioned, lest it give rise to aversion and non-receptivity), which provides some clarity on why I think your insistence on measuring arahants in terms of khandas is (beyond even the suttas quoted so far) misguided.
I am not saying anything beyond the suttas, and you have not shown that I have. So don't make such accusations.

"One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure & bright as this towards the dimension of the infinitude of space and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated. One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure and bright as this towards the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated.' One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within. One discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

"Sensing a feeling of pleasure, one discerns that it is fleeting, not grasped at, not relished. Sensing a feeling of pain... Sensing a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one discerns that it is fleeting, not grasped at, not relished. Sensing a feeling of pleasure, one senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of pain... Sensing a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one senses it disjoined from it. When sensing a feeling limited to the body, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to the body.' When sensing a feeling limited to life, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to life.' One discerns that 'With the break-up of the body, after the termination of life, all that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here.'"—
-- MN 140
And here is the tool in play as a way of talking about what is going on with one's experience from an awakened point of view up to the point of death, using khandha talk. There are many ways of talking about these things, but when there is talk about cessation, it certainly cannot mean a literal cessation of anything other than a cessation of the upādānakkhandhas colored by greed, hatred and delusion. Obviously for the living arahant what we might call the khandhas as a way of talking about experience are still in play, but there is no further putting together based upon greed, hatred, and delusion, which could be characterized as as a cessation of the upādānakkhandha.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:45 am

Greetings Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote:Just out of curiosity, retro, is there anything in the Dependant Cessation formula (which is but an expanded "Imasmim asati idam na hoti" formula) to suggest that with the cessation of avijja, phassa of all sorts cease without remainder contemporaneously with that cessation of avijja? It is possible to read the locative absolute in this manner, but had the Buddha intended DS to be understood to have this temporal consequence, He or the redactors could have elected to use the absolutive for avijja ceasing, so as to leave little room for doubt.

At this time, I'm not able to give a definitive answer, but I'll say what I can...

A few pages ago I floated the possibility that this may be the distinction between nibbana with fuel remaining, and nibbana with no fuel remaining. (I really should go back and look for that Udana quote). I put the theory forward for consideration by participants in this discussion, but it seemed to get lost along the way. I do not believe that "nibbana with no fuel remaining" equates to the death of an arahant, as some people commonly infer. I would equate it with "release".

As the dependent origination relationship is structural rather than temporal, I'm hesitant to make any assertions about the matter of temporality other than to say I do not think that it is unreasonable for someone to claim that it takes time.

Sylvester wrote:I don't think I've yet seen a convincing citation of any sutta to suggest that an Arahant does not cognise, feel or perceive.

Well, no one is suggesting the Buddha, once enlightened, became a deaf, dumb and blind fool so I don't think it would require sutta validation. :)

Sylvester wrote:But what I do see are suttas that draw the line between an Arahant's experience of these 3 and the possibility of papanca or of the anusayas flowing from those experience.

Yes, that is true, but as per my last post to Tilt, I think it goes more fundamentally back to the matter of sankharas and that all dhammas in dependent origination are formed (sankhata).

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:52 am

retrofuturist wrote:Well, no one is suggesting the Buddha, once enlightened, became a deaf, dumb and blind fool so I don't think it would require sutta validation. . . . I think it goes more fundamentally back to the matter of sankharas and that all dhammas in dependent origination are formed (sankhata).
They very well be formed, but that does not mean they are formed, in the arahant, by greed, hatred, and delusion. The act of seeing, recognizing and forming new memories, which certainly an arahant would be able to do are all conditioned, but they are not conditioned by the only conditioning that matters: greed, hatred, and delusion.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Nyana » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:55 am

tiltbillings wrote:The question of the OP seems to do with the arahant experiencing vipaka from pre-awakening kamma after awakening. Simply, by being emobodied - as it were - they probably do, to some degree. Unlike the worldling, there is no attachment to it or obsession with it, so they are neither bothered by it nor can they be defined or measured by it. It may be, interstingly enough however, what the stories of some arahants being approached by Mara are about -- that is, as a figurative way of accounting for what arises from being in a mind/body with past conditioning.

Sure. It's quite obvious that an arahant still has the six faculties and still dies.

All the best,

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:57 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The question of the OP seems to do with the arahant experiencing vipaka from pre-awakening kamma after awakening. Simply, by being emobodied - as it were - they probably do, to some degree. Unlike the worldling, there is no attachment to it or obsession with it, so they are neither bothered by it nor can they be defined or measured by it. It may be, interstingly enough however, what the stories of some arahants being approached by Mara are about -- that is, as a figurative way of accounting for what arises from being in a mind/body with past conditioning.

Sure. It's quite obvious that an arahant still has the six faculties and still dies.
All-righty then. That is pretty much my point.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:02 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:The point of practice is seeing just that; however, that does not mean that the idea of "khandhas" cannot be useful tool in getting at what is going on in one's experience. Obviously the Buddha thought so...

What is formed by ignorance is the misapprehension of a tool as being something other what it is.

No one is denying that. As Geoff said a few posts ago, "The path has been fabricated in order to reach the fruition"

retrofuturist wrote:...your insistence on measuring arahants in terms of khandas

tiltbillings wrote:I am not saying anything beyond the suttas, and you have not shown that I have. So don't make such accusations.

What is this then...?

tiltbillings wrote:I am talking about the arahant's experience as played out via the khandhas until the arahant dies - viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6382&start=220#p126125


tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Well, no one is suggesting the Buddha, once enlightened, became a deaf, dumb and blind fool so I don't think it would require sutta validation. . . . I think it goes more fundamentally back to the matter of sankharas and that all dhammas in dependent origination are formed (sankhata).
They very well be formed, but that does not mean they are formed, in the arahant, by greed, hatred, and delusion. The act of seeing, recognizing and forming new memories, which certainly an arahant would be able to do are all conditioned, but they are not conditioned by the only conditioning that matters: greed, hatred, and delusion.

Given that dependent origination entails the entirety of conditioned existence (loka), by talking about some other kind of "formation" separate from that you are speaking beyond range. To wit, it is not connected with dukkha and nirodha.

This comment concludes that no progress can be made in this conversation at this point in time...

tiltbillings wrote:There are many ways of talking about these things, but when there is talk about cessation, it certainly cannot mean a literal cessation of anything other than a cessation of the upādānakkhandhas colored by greed, hatred and delusion.

Obviously for the living arahant what we might call the khandhas as a way of talking about experience are still in play, but there is no further putting together based upon greed, hatred, and delusion, which could be characterized as as a cessation of the upādānakkhandha.

Thank you for the enjoyable exchange.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Nyana » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:09 am

Sylvester wrote:why do you insist on reading SN 12.64 as evidence for an "unestablished consciousness", when the plain reading of SN 12.64 simply speaks of "consciousness not being established"?

I'm not insisting on anything. There isn't really any advantage to this entire line of investigation. I personally consider Ven. Ñāṇananda and Ven. Ñāṇavīra's interpretations to be reasonable and appropriate in the current climate of mainstream Theravāda philosophical realism. Thus, it's something of a countermeasure -- just as Nāgārjuna was a countermeasure to similar trends in antiquity. To paraphrase Ven. Ñāṇananda, it's too bad that Nāgārjuna's followers had to turn it into a Vāda. It's possible that some of Ñāṇavīra's followers are trying to do the same. I don't see the point.

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:59 am

Greetings Tilt,

retrofuturist wrote:Now, I will quote you something from another author (whose name shall not be mentioned, lest it give rise to aversion and non-receptivity), which provides some clarity on why I think your insistence on measuring arahants in terms of khandas is (beyond even the suttas quoted so far) misguided.

tiltbillings wrote:I am not saying anything beyond the suttas, and you have not shown that I have. So don't make such accusations.

I believe you have misunderstood what I intended to communicate. I did not accuse you of speaking beyond the suttas.

The bracketed section of my statement that read, "beyond even the suttas quoted so far" was referring to suttas quoted thus far in this conversation such as the Dhammapada quote about the tracelessness of a bird's flight-path...

Dhp92. Those who do not accumulate and are wise regarding nutriment, whose object is the Void, the Unconditioned Freedom — their track cannot be traced, like that of birds in the air.

... and SN 6.7 Kokālika Sutta, as quoted by Nana...

What wise man here would seek to define
A measureless one by taking his measure?
He who would measure a measureless one
Must be, I think, an obstructed worldling.

To be clear - I am not accusing you of speaking outside of the suttas... we just understand their implications differently, that's all.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby acinteyyo » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:32 am

tiltbillings wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:The all is to be abandoned. The path is to be developed in order to abandon the all. The path is entirely 100% fabricated for that specific purpose. The raft is for crossing over, not for carrying around once crossed over, and certainly not for constructing philosophies.

:goodpost: this hits the nail on the head again! We are too often mislead still trying to describe the measureless with inapropriate means.
No one is trying to describe the measureless by inappropriate means. While the arahant maybe measureless in terms of no longer taking measure in terms of mine and not mine and that there is a mine at all, that does not mean that for the arahant while still alive, that the khandhas are not functioning, They obviously are.

This is a crucial point, which raises the question what we are able to tell about arahants? Certainly the khandhas are functioning but what does this tell us about the arahant? All we can say from that is, that what an arahant experiences is just the pañcakhandhā. The pañcakhandhā are obviously functioning but this doesn't tell us anything about the arahant, because the functioning of the pañcakhandhā as well as the pañcakhandhā themselves do not point to the arahant, they're non-indicative. The arahant can't be found by the khandhā. It seems that only a particular absence (bhavanirodha, phassanirodha, sakkāyanirodha and so on...) "implies" an arahant. But seen from the "outside" this can't be perceived in any way by the puthujjana. As I see it there aren't enough appropriate positive terms to describe an arahant, in fact I'm not really sure if there is anything at all, since talking about "living" or "dead arahant" actually isn't appropriate already. This is already some kind of "carrying around the raft", constructing philosophies about one who's thus gone only by a raft we see which has been left at the other shore.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

:anjali:
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:50 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:...your insistence on measuring arahants in terms of khandas

tiltbillings wrote:I am not saying anything beyond the suttas, and you have not shown that I have. So don't make such accusations.

What is this then...?

tiltbillings wrote:I am talking about the arahant's experience as played out via the khandhas until the arahant dies - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p126125
"What is this then?" It is your grossly taking out of context what I have said.

As the suttas clearly states, the living arahant is no longer obsessed with, no longer identifying with the khandhas and is, thusly, no longer measured by the grasping after, the pushing away, or the misapprehension of the khandhas, but interestingly enough, the living arahant senses, thinks, remembers, acts, and has a personality within the context of the khandhas, which means the old conditioning is still at play. But the living arahant no longer obsesses with, or identifies with, the results of the old conditioning that may arise within the khandhas as a result of the khandhas' conditioning; the living arahant no longer obsessing over, or identifying with the results of the old conditioning that may arise within the khandhas as a result of the khandhas' conditioning is not measured by it. And, of course, this is my opinion, but I have yet to see anything presented here that contradicts its.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:01 pm

acinteyyo wrote: . . .
Thank you, bhante, for your reply. See:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6382&p=126192#p126192

The only speculative bit here in all of this is the OP.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:31 pm

Hi Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:What is interesting is that an not yet dead arahnt's khandhas obviously function.

The perception of khandas is itself the delusion perpetuated by sankharas, which are perpetuated by avijja, Tilt. That is what the sutta above tells you, and I what I have been unsuccessfully trying to tell you throughout this correspondence.
Goodness. First of all the khandhas are a way of talking about experience. No need to take them as things or some sort of absolutes, and the delusion is taking them as self-referential things. The point of practice is seeing just that; however, that does not mean that the idea of "khandhas" cannot be useful tool in getting at what is going on in one's experience. Obviously the Buddha thought so.

Of course, I totally agree. As far as I can tell, it's Retro that keeps making what seem to me to be ontological arguments about how the khandhas don't exist:
Principal questions of ontology are "What can be said to exist?"... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology

Whereas, I, like you, see them as a way of classifying experience. The extreme of insistence on existence or non-existence is, as the Buddha taught, something to be avoided...

However, we seem to have strayed a long way from what I thought was the more interesting question of whether an Ahahant is still playing out the result of old kamma...

:anjali:
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby acinteyyo » Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:46 pm

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
acinteyyo wrote: . . .
Thank you, bhante, for your reply. See:

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 92#p126192

The only speculative bit here in all of this is the OP.

Btw to address me as "bhante" is way too much. I'm just an ordinary upāsaka. :anjali:

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:06 pm

acinteyyo wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
acinteyyo wrote: . . .
Thank you, bhante, for your reply. See:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6382&p=126192#p126192

The only speculative bit here in all of this is the OP.

Btw to address me as "bhante" is way too much. I'm just an ordinary upāsaka. :anjali:

best wishes, acinteyyo
Sorry.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:23 pm

mikenz66 wrote:However, we seem to have strayed a long way from what I thought was the more interesting question of whether an Ahahant is still playing out the result of old kamma...
Obviously opinions are going to vary, which should be a major shocker.
My opinion is neatly outlined here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6382&p=126228#p126192 which I feel is supported by the texts quoted.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:08 pm

Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:As far as I can tell, it's Retro that keeps making what seem to me to be ontological arguments about how the khandhas don't exist

As far as you can tell, sure, but please find me one single example where I have claimed the non-existence of anything, Mike... otherwise this comment of your's is just bunkum, reflective of not understanding what I am attempting to communicate.

What you certainly won't find me pandering to is (as Geoff eloquently put it) the "current climate of mainstream Theravāda philosophical realism". viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6382&start=240#p126158

To that end, I can see how posts I've made throughout this topic make an argument that might seem unfamiliar and unnerving to those comfortable in that climate of realism. Something being out of one's comfort zone however, does not instantly make it wrong - often the fact that something does jar with our views makes it worthy of investigation. The views I state are rooted in the suttas, and in the explanations of modern Theravada teachers who accept a phenomenological presentation of the Buddha's teachings. If I see that such a presentation is not understood or accepted by someone, I am happy to let it go and leave it there, as demonstrated multiple times throughout this topic.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:43 am

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:As far as I can tell, it's Retro that keeps making what seem to me to be ontological arguments about how the khandhas don't exist

As far as you can tell, sure, but please find me one single example where I have claimed the non-existence of anything, Mike... otherwise this comment of your's is just bunkum, reflective of not understanding what I am attempting to communicate.

Interestingly prickly reaction...

Your position seems to be that any experience we have and analyse via khandhas, etc, is merely delusion. Are you not saying that? In my opinion that would overstating it and heading into ontological territory. Worrying about whether things are real or not is not the point (I hope we agree on that).

retrofuturist wrote:What you certainly won't find me pandering to is (as Geoff eloquently put it) the "current climate of mainstream Theravāda philosophical realism". http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p126158

:strawman:
retrofuturist wrote:To that end, I can see how posts I've made throughout this topic make an argument that might seem unfamiliar and unnerving to those comfortable in that climate of realism. Something being out of one's comfort zone however, does not instantly make it wrong - often the fact that something does jar with our views makes it worthy of investigation. The views I state are rooted in the suttas, and in the explanations of modern Theravada teachers who accept a phenomenological presentation of the Buddha's teachings.

That's what Tilt and I are talking about. Phenomenology.
retrofuturist wrote: If I see that such a presentation is not understood or accepted by someone, I am happy to let it go and leave it there, as demonstrated multiple times throughout this topic.

As am I. You opinions are, of course, based on your reading of the Suttas. As are other opinions.

We can agree to disagree. I don't find these discussions have any impact on how I structure my practise, so I can't say I'm particularly wedded to any particular interpretation.

:anjali:
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:48 am

tiltbillings wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:However, we seem to have strayed a long way from what I thought was the more interesting question of whether an Ahahant is still playing out the result of old kamma...
Obviously opinions are going to vary, which should be a major shocker.
My opinion is neatly outlined here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6382&p=126228#p126192 which I feel is supported by the texts quoted.

Yes, it might be interesting to look at the suttas where the personalities of Arahants is discussed, which is presumably relevant to this playing out of old kamma. Unfortunately, I don't have any references handy.

:anjali:
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:59 am

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:Interestingly prickly reaction...

It was more bemusement that after 13 pages of being the most active participant in the discussion, and having not once made such a statement, you suggest that I had. Hence, I challenged you to provide an example.

mikenz66 wrote:Your position seems to be that any experience we have and analyse via khandhas, etc, is merely delusion. Are you not saying that?

No, there can be moha or panna.

mikenz66 wrote:You opinions are, of course, based on your reading of the Suttas. As are other opinions. We can agree to disagree.

I agree entirely, and feel that is an appropriate basis upon which to have an open exchange.

mikenz66 wrote:I don't find these discussions have any impact on how I structure my practise, so I can't say I'm particularly wedded to any particular interpretation.

No worries. My interest in terms of practice is along the lines of the instructions given to Bahiya and the results he achieved through following the Buddha's instruction to him.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:12 am

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:Yes, it might be interesting to look at the suttas where the personalities of Arahants is discussed, which is presumably relevant to this playing out of old kamma. Unfortunately, I don't have any references handy.

By my understanding of vipaka it wouldn't be relevant, though if you wish to pursue it Maha-Kassapa might make for a good case study, though you would want to carefully demarcate the source materials.

Maha Kassapa: Father of the Sangha by Hellmuth Hecker
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el345.html

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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