Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:01 am


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:28 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:29 am


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:50 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby pegembara » Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:01 pm

Last edited by pegembara on Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby acinteyyo » Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:04 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:22 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:10 pm


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:21 pm


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:22 pm

• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Nyana » Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:54 pm


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:51 pm


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby acinteyyo » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:10 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:58 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:24 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby daverupa » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:51 pm

So there are two darts: mental darts and physical darts.

Putthujanas experience physical darts and mental darts.
Arahants experience physical darts.

Darts are vedana, yes?

So paticcanirodha, which includes the cessation of vedana, phassa, and so forth, must therefore have only to do with mental darts. Physical darts aren't addressed at all when paticcanirodha is explained in detail.

Therefore, paticcasamuppada also has nothing to do with physical darts. In fact, there can be action without kamma-vipaka in the case of an arahant ( explains this point). This serves to fully differentiate the operation of kamma as a mental function: sometimes action renders kamma-vipaka, sometimes it does not. The difference is putthujana v. arahant, i.e. conditioned action v. unconditioned action. (This is not to say that an arahant's action is wholly unconditioned as lifting one's hand is conditioned by there being a hand in the first place, only that it is unconditioned by greed, hatred, or delusion.)

(AN 3.99): "Monks, for anyone who says, 'In whatever way a person makes kamma, that is how it is experienced,' there is no living of the holy life, there is no opportunity for the right ending of stress. But for anyone who says, 'When a person makes kamma to be felt in such & such a way, that is how its result is experienced,' there is the living of the holy life, there is the opportunity for the right ending of stress."

This is what the Buddha means here, and he reminds Angulimala about this. Angulimala at the time of the clod incident was an arahant,** so there were no mental darts there, no kamma - but coming down the road with broken requisites and a bloody head wound, there was a physical dart there. So the question seems to be, is that physical dart kamma-vipaka?

Set the case of Angulimala aside for a moment: is the case of the Buddha experiencing the 'physical dart' from Devadatta's second assassination attempt a case of the Buddha experiencing kamma-vipaka?

___
**I'm somewhat convinced that this text is corrupt only because the advice the Buddha called out to Angulimala makes more sense to say to one in training, not one gone beyond training. The little vignette which follows, along with the verses, looks very tacked-on and therefore chronologically suspect. A mistake while combining two or more Suttas when crafting the Majjhima Nikaya version seems quite possible.

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:16 am


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby cooran » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:41 am

Not sure if this would interest anyone? --- about the Buddha and vipaka --

Then Devadatta himself tried to kill the Buddha. When the Buddha was walking on the Vultures' Rock, Devadatta climbed to the peak and hurled a huge stone at the Buddha. On its way down, the rock struck another rock and a splinter flew and wounded the Buddha's foot, causing blood to flow. The Buddha looked up and seeing Devadatta, he remarked with pity, "Foolish man, you have done many unwholesome deeds for harming the Buddha."
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/bud ... _5lbud.htm

SN I.38 Sakalika Sutta
Sakalika Sutta (Splinter of Rock Discourse )

38. Thus have I heard:
At one time the Bhagava was residing in Maddakucchi1 Park, a deer sanctuary near Rajagaha. At that time the Bhagava's foot was struck by a splinter of rock.2 The Bhagava felt excessive physical pain which was tormenting, acute, harsh, severe, nasty and unpleasant. Not complaining at, all the Bhagava endured the pain with mindfulness and comprehension. He lay on his right side on the great robe which was spread on the ground folded fourfold, with one foot slightly further than the other one on which it rested.

During that time, soon after the middle watch of the night, seven hundred devas of exceeding beauty who became devas by (practising and) imparting the doctrine of the virtuous, approached the Bhagava, illuminating the entire Maddakucchi Park. They made obeisance to the Bhagava and stood at a suitable place. And standing thus, one of them uttered this expression of joy in the presence of the Bhagava:
Friends! How like the powerful elephant is Samana Gotama' It is because he is like the powerful elephant that he is not complaining at all but is enduring with mindfulness and comprehension this physical pain which is tormenting, acute, harsh, severe, nasty and unpleasant!"

Then another deva uttered this' expression of joy in the presence of the Bhagava:
"Friends" How like the brave lion is Samana Gotama! It is because he is like the brave lion that he is not complaining at all, but is enduring with mindfulness and comprehension this physical pain which is tormenting, acute, harsh, severe, nasty and unpleasant!"
Then another deva uttered this expression of joy in the presence of the Bhagava:
"Friends! How like a hero is Samana Gotama! It is because he is like a hero that he is not complaining at all, but is enduring with mindfulness and comprehension the physical pain which is tormenting, acute, harsh, severe, nasty and unpleasant!"
Then another deva uttered this expression of joy in the presence of the Bhagava:
"Friends! How like the unrivalled bull is Samana Gotama! It is because he is like the unrivalled bull that he is not complaining at all, but is enduring with mindfulness and comprehension the physical pain which is tormenting, acute, harsh, severe, nasty and unpleasant."
Then another deva uttered this expression of joy in the presence of the Bhagava:
"Friends! How like the draught ox is Samana Gotama! It is because he is like the draught ox that he is not complaining at all, but is enduring with mindfulnes and comprehension the physical pain which is tormenting, acute, harsh, severe, nasty and unpleasant!"
Then another deva uttered the expression of joy in the presence of the Bhagava:
"Friends! How self-disciplined is Samana Gotama. It is because he is self-disciplined that he is not complaining at all, but is enduring with mindfulness and comprehension the physical pain which is tormenting, acute, harsh, severe, nasty, and unpleasant!"
Then another deva uttered this expression of joy in the presence of the Bhagava:
"Look at the perfectly developed concentration (of the Bhagava)! Look at the mind that is completely released (from defilements), that is not swayed (by greed), that is not turned away (by anger), and that does not need any effort towards suppression (of passion). Who ever would consider hurting such man who is like the powerful elephant, the brave lion, who is a hero, who is like the unrivalled bull, the draught ox, and who is self-disciplined, must be nothing but a stupid person!"

(Then the Bhagava said:)
"The brahmins who are adept in the five Vedas and follow the austere practice may strive for a hundred years. yet their mind cannot gain complete release from defilements. Lowly as their mind is, they can never cross over to the other shore (Nibbana).
"Those who are overwhelmed by Craving and who follow rites and rituals outside the Ariya Path may engage themselves in mortifying practices for a hundred years, yet their mind cannot gain complete release from defilements. Lowly as their mind is, they can never cross over to the other shore (Nibbana).
"In this world, he who is conceited3 , lacks self-control (i.e., tranquillity of mind).
For one who lacks tranquillity of mind, there can be no Magga Insight. A forest-dweller may lead a lonely life, yet if he lacks mindfulness, he cannot cross over the planes of existences where death prevails, to the other shore(which is Nibbana).
"He who abandons conceit, who has a tranquilled mind, and who has wisdom is free from (attachment to) all existence. A forest-dweller leading a lonely life, if he practises mindfulness, can cross over the planes of existence where death prevails to the other shore (which is Nibbana)."
End of the Sakalika Sutta,
the eighth in this vagga.

1. Maddakucchi Park: So called because it was the place where Queen Vedehi, mother of the patricide Prince Ajatasattu, on learning the potential danger of her own child she was carrying in her womb, tried unsuccessfully to abort the child foetus. (Maddati, to press, to trample; kucchi, the belly, the womb)
2. The splinter of rock that struck the Buddha's foot was the result of bhikkhu Devadatta's attempt against the Buddha's life. While the Buddha was at the foot of Mount Gijiakuta, Devadatta rolled a boulder down on him. But the boulder, struck another boulder on the way down and only a splinter hit the Buddha's foot.
3. He who is conceited: manakamassa: lit., for him who desires conceit.
http://www.dhammaweb.net/Tipitaka/read.php?id=224

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:09 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine


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