Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

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tiltbillings
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
So, when an arahant sees something, there is no "Dependent on the eye and the forms, eye-consciousness arises; the coming-together of the three is sense-impression." Something else is happening.
Yes, something else is happening. "So long as there is avijjā, all things (dhammā) are fundamentally as described in the earlier part of the Mūlapariyāyasutta (MN 1); that is to say, they are inherently in subjection, they are appropriated, they are mine. This is the foundation of the notion that I am and that things are in contact with me This contact between me and things is phassa."
"Dependent on the eye and the forms, eye-consciousness arises; the coming-together of the three is sense-impression." is paticcasamuppada.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote: "Dependent on the eye and the forms, eye-consciousness arises; the coming-together of the three is sense-impression." is paticcasamuppada.
By which you confirm what I'm saying about it not applying to an arahant.

I'm still trying to work out what your argument (positively framed) is. All I'm seeing is disgruntled pokes.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote: "Dependent on the eye and the forms, eye-consciousness arises; the coming-together of the three is sense-impression." is paticcasamuppada.
By which you confirm what I'm saying about it not applying to an arahant.
So, for the arahant, she sees by a differnt process.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:By which you confirm what I'm saying about it not applying to an arahant. So, for the arahant, she sees by a differnt process.
Eye-consciousness unaccompanied by avijja.

(No phassa... phassa would be constructing/forming in the way the Buddha advised Bahiya against, i.e. taking eye-consciousness in subjection).

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:By which you confirm what I'm saying about it not applying to an arahant.
So, for the arahant, she sees by a differnt process.
Eye-consciousness unaccompanied by avijja.

(No phassa... phassa would be constructing/forming in the way the Buddha advised Bahiya against).
phassa, contact, is 'sense-impression', contact. Of course there is phassa. If there were none, then the arahant would not be able recongnize a thing by its marks, saññā. In other words, there would be no memory.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,

It's about contact between subject and object.
Tilt wrote:Of course there is phassa.
No.
SN 12.15 wrote:"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
a.k.a. phassanirodha.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

It's about contact between subject and object.
Tilt wrote:Of course there is phassa.
No.
SN 12.15 wrote:"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
a.k.a. phassanirodha.

Metta,
Retro. :)
And if you take this literally, all that there is left is nothing. The cessation of ignorance can be taken literally, but the rest is the cessation those things conditioned by ignorance until we get to the cessation of craving. Cessation of craving and what follows is literal. The upādānakkhandha become the khandhas.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:And if you take this literally, all that there is left is nothing.
Nothing rooted in avijja, anyway. (Of course I am speaking phenomenologically, not ontologically... something probably worth re-iterating at this point. Just as when a meditator enters the formless realms, their body does not turn to dust, the eye and ears of the arahant do not turn to dust either)
tiltbillings wrote:The cessation of ignorance can be taken literally, but the rest is the cessation those things conditioned by ignorance until we get to the cessation of craving. Cessation of craving and what follows is literal. The upādānakkhandha become the khandhas.
I see what you're saying, but I don't see the need to switch from one mode of interpretation to another once it hits craving. Everything beyond avijja, is formed (i.e. sankhata dhamma), so by attaining arahantship, anything formed need no longer be acknowledged. Furthermore, attempts to define what an arahant is by any formed measure are futile...
Dhp 93 wrote:He whose cankers are destroyed and who is not attached to nutriment, whose object is the Void, the Unconditioned Freedom — his path cannot be traced, like that of birds in the air.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

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retrofuturist wrote:I see what you're saying, but I don't see the need to switch from one mode of interpretation to another once it hits craving. Everything beyond avijja, is formed (i.e. sankhata dhamma), so by attaining arahantship, anything formed need no longer be acknowledged. Furthermore, attempts to define what an arahant is by any formed measure are futile...
But the reality is that the arahant "lives in" a mind/body (the pañca-khandha/five aggregates) until it (the body) dies, which is to say that paticcasamuppada, which is Dhamma, is what functions. Just not paticcasamuppada conditioned by ignorance.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:But the reality is that the arahant "lives in" a mind/body (the pañca-khandha/five aggregates) until it (the body) dies, which is to say that paticcasamuppada, which is Dhamma, is what functions. Just not paticcasamuppada conditioned by ignorance.
Respectfullly I disagree. The arahant is dependent on nothing. There is no such thing as "paticcasamuppada [not] conditioned by ignorance". Or if you think there is, I would appreciate any sutta references on the subject.

Ud 8.4: Nibbana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time the Blessed One was instructing urging, rousing, and encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with Unbinding. The monks — receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear — listened to the Dhamma.

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:

One who is dependent has wavering. One who is independent has no wavering. There being no wavering, there is calm. There being calm, there is no desire. There being no desire, there is no coming or going. There being no coming or going, there is no passing away or arising. There being no passing away or arising, there is neither a here nor a there nor a between-the-two. This, just this, is the end of stress.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

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retrofuturist wrote:What do you know about the physicality of the body beyond what is experienced by means of the four remaining aggregates of feeling (vedana), perception (sanna), formations (sankhara) and consciousness (vinnana)?
Nothing, that which lies beyond what is experienced by means of the aggregates is beyond "my" range. Or do you mean what I know only by means of the aggregate of form (rūpa)? However there seems to be something which appears to be much more durable in some way, almost permanent (but it's not) compared to the rest within the experience by means of the aggregates. This is probably the reason for the differentiation in "own body" and other(s) within experience. Furthermore it seems that all experience is experienced always from the same "point of view". Or in other words that experience seems to happen always in the same "place", while everything is constantly changing the "place" or the "point of view" where experience is known seem to be fixed (only for as long as there is experience). Maybe this is what is sometimes called "knower" or "the one who knows". Do you know what I mean? Guess that's going to be off topic...

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

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retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:But the reality is that the arahant "lives in" a mind/body (the pañca-khandha/five aggregates) until it (the body) dies, which is to say that paticcasamuppada, which is Dhamma, is what functions. Just not paticcasamuppada conditioned by ignorance.
Respectfullly I disagree. The arahant is dependent on nothing.
Now you are the one reifying the arahant. I did not say that the arahant is dependent upon anything.
There is no such thing as "paticcasamuppada [not] conditioned by ignorance".
Says who?
Or if you think there is, I would appreciate any sutta references on the subject.
Try the most basic formulat of paticcasamuppada, "This being, that is; from the arising of this, that arises." It underlies everything in the Buddha's teachings.
Ud 8.4: Nibbana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time the Blessed One was instructing urging, rousing, and encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with Unbinding. The monks — receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear — listened to the Dhamma.

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:

One who is dependent has wavering. One who is independent has no wavering. There being no wavering, there is calm. There being calm, there is no desire. There being no desire, there is no coming or going. There being no coming or going, there is no passing away or arising. There being no passing away or arising, there is neither a here nor a there nor a between-the-two. This, just this, is the end of stress.
Metta,
Retro. :)
A text that actually, neatly makes my point.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings acinteyyo,
acinteyyo wrote:Nothing, that which lies beyond what is experienced by means of the aggregates is beyond "my" range. Or do you mean what I know only by means of the aggregate of form (rūpa)? However there seems to be something which appears to be much more durable in some way, almost permanent (but it's not) compared to the rest within the experience by means of the aggregates. This is probably the reason for the differentiation in "own body" and other(s) within experience. Furthermore it seems that all experience is experienced always from the same "point of view". Or in other words that experience seems to happen always in the same "place", while everything is constantly changing the "place" or the "point of view" where experience is known seem to be fixed (only for as long as there is experience). Maybe this is what is sometimes called "knower" or "the one who knows". Do you know what I mean? Guess that's going to be off topic...
Thanks for sharing your thoughts... I think they go some way to explaining why the Buddha utilised a five aggregates schema of existence, when in theory, "rupa" could have been subsumed elsewhere under the other four. Excluding rupa would have lead to all number of accusations, such as denial of the existence of the body etc. so it would seem a good move. Anyway (believe it or not, this is leading somewhere).....

In the Majjhima Nikaya, we find a definition of nama.
MN i,9 wrote:Feeling, perception, intention, contact, attention,—this, friends, is called name (Vedanā saññā cetanā phasso manasikāro, idam vuccat'āvuso nāmam)
Is there anything in that definition that you think falls outside of the four aggregates (minus rupa) specified earlier?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by daverupa »

tiltbillings wrote:But the reality is that the arahant "lives in" a mind/body (the pañca-khandha/five aggregates)
Seems I've heard that view before...
[url=http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.085.than.html]Yamaka Sutta[/url] (SN 22.85) wrote:"What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as being in form?... Elsewhere than form?... In feeling?... Elsewhere than feeling?... In perception?... Elsewhere than perception?... In fabrications?... Elsewhere than fabrications?... In consciousness?... Elsewhere than consciousness?"

"No, my friend."

"What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?"

"No, my friend."

"Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?"

"No, my friend."

"And so, my friend Yamaka — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death'?"

"Previously, my friend Sariputta, I did foolishly hold that evil supposition. But now, having heard your explanation of the Dhamma, I have abandoned that evil supposition, and have broken through to the Dhamma."

"Then, friend Yamaka, how would you answer if you are thus asked: A monk, a worthy one, with no more mental effluents: what is he on the break-up of the body, after death?"

"Thus asked, I would answer, 'Form is inconstant... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant. That which is inconstant is stressful. That which is stressful has ceased and gone to its end."
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Now you are the one reifying the arahant.
No, I'm not. I'm just saying what the Buddha said in Ud 8.4...."One who is independent has no wavering. There being no wavering, there is calm. There being calm, there is no desire. There being no desire, there is no coming or going. There being no coming or going, there is no passing away or arising. There being no passing away or arising, there is neither a here nor a there nor a between-the-two. This, just this, is the end of stress."
tiltbillings wrote:I did not say that the arahant is dependent upon anything.
Yes you did.... you said "the reality is that the arahant "lives in" a mind/body (the pañca-khandha/five aggregates) until it (the body) dies, which is to say that paticcasamuppada, which is Dhamma, is what functions. Just not paticcasamuppada conditioned by ignorance." That's dependent... paticcasamuppada means dependent origination.
tiltbillings wrote:Try the most basic formulat of paticcasamuppada, "This being, that is; from the arising of this, that arises." It underlies everything in the Buddha's teachings.
And given the Buddha's teachings focus on the loka/sabba of conditioned existence rather than the universe, what examples could you feed through your Idappaccayata forumula that aren't dependent on avijja?
tiltbillings wrote:A text that actually, neatly makes my point.
I don't see how.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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