Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

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mikenz66
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Retro,

I really struggle to follow your arguments about kamma and loka.
retrofuturist wrote: I think the emphasis ought to be on vipaka being within loka, not outside loka... and clods, sticks, comets and such aren't within loka, as loka is defined by the Buddha. Only aggregates (which disintegrate) and senses (which disintegrate) are within loka.
So there is a world/all outside that which we experience? Are the clods not part of our experience?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Insofar as it disintegrates,[2] monk, it is called the 'world.' Now what disintegrates? The eye disintegrates. Forms disintegrate. Consciousness at the eye disintegrates. Contact at the eye disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too disintegrates.
"The ear disintegrates. Sounds disintegrate...
...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas.
:anjali:
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by cooran »

retrofuturist wrote: Let us take the example of unknowingly stepping on a slug.

It is an action (walking) and it has consequences (mooshy slug, sloppy sole of the shoe).

The walking was volitional - you chose to walk.

What do you say is the "fruit" in this situation... is it the mooshy slug and soggy sole, or is it nothing, because there was no intention to harm (i.e. no unwholesome mindstate)?

If you say the former, you're speaking conventionally - if you say the latter, you're speaking in the Dhammic sense.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Hello Retro,

I don't think so.

Unintentional action is not kamma. If we accidently step on some ants while walking down the street, that is not the kamma of taking life, for there was no intention to kill. If we speak some statement believing it to be true and it turns out to be false, this is not the kamma of lying, for there is no intention of deceiving.
On Kamma - by Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.theravada.ca/readings/64-que ... bodhi.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:Arahants have discarded vipaka/suffering.
Where does it say here that vipaka IS suffering?[/quote]

I didn't say the word "is".... I was abbreviating this sequence...
From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
.... where that which comes after the kamma/cetana/sankhara, is the experienced resultant of said kamma/cetana/sankhara.

From the cessation of fabrications (sankhara/cetana/kamma), comes the cessation of suffering.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Cooran,

You might not realise it, but we're actually in agreement.... vipaka isn't just "what happens after we kill something" (i.e. soggy shoes, squashed slug), it's the experienced resultant of a volitional action.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
mikenz66 wrote:So there is a world/all outside that which we experience? Are the clods not part of our experience?
The five aggregates are our experience. The six senses are our experience.

Where do clods fit in to that? The feel of clods, the taste of clods, the smell of clods, the smell of clods.... but not the clods, in and of themselves, independent of receiving consciousness.

Angulimala experienced feeling (of clod, of cuts)... not "clod" itself.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

Just so we're all on the same page:
Kamma: advantageous or disadvantageous action; Sanskrit karma, Pāli: kamma: 'action', correctly speaking denotes the advantageous and disadvantageous intentions kusala and akusala-cetanā and their concomitant mental properties, causing rebirth and shaping the destiny of beings. These kammical intentions kammacetanā become manifest as advantageous or disadvantageous actions by body kāya-kamma speech vacī-kamma and mind mano-kamma Thus the Buddhist term 'kamma' by no means signifies the result of actions, and quite certainly not the fate of man, or perhaps even of whole nations the so-called wholesale or mass-kamma, misconceptions which, through the influence of theosophy, have become widely spread in the West.

intention cetanā o Bhikkhus, is what I call action cetanāham bhikkhave kammam vadāmi for through intention one performs the action by body, speech or mind.. There is kamma action, o Bhikkhus, that ripens in hell. Kamma that ripens in the animal world.. Kamma that ripens in the world of men. Kamma that ripens in the divine world. Threefold, however, is the fruit of kamma: ripening during the life-time dittha-dhamma-vedanīya-kamma ripening in the next birth upapajja-vedanīya-kamma ripening in later births aparāpariya-vedanīya kamma... A.VI, 63.

The 3 conditions or roots mūla of disadvantageous kamma actions are greed, hatred, confusion lobha dosa moha those of advantageous kamma are: unselfishness alobha hatelessness adosa = mettā good-will, unconfusedness amoha = paññā knowledge.
Greed, o Bhikkhus, is a condition for the arising of kamma; hatred is a condition for the arising of kamma; confusion is a condition for the arising of kamma. A. III, 109.

The disadvantageous actions are of 3 kinds, conditioned by greed, or hate, or confusion.
Killing... stealing... unlawful sexual intercourse... lying... slandering... rude speech... foolish babble, if practised, carried on, and frequently cultivated, leads to rebirth in hell, or amongst the animals, or amongst the ghosts A. III, 40. He who kills and is cruel goes either to hell or, if reborn as man, will be short-lived. He who torments others will be afflicted with disease. The angry one will look ugly, the envious one will be without influence, the stingy one will be poor, the stubborn one will be of low descent, the indolent one will be without knowledge. In the contrary case, man will be reborn in heaven or reborn as man, he will be long-lived, possessed of beauty, influence, noble descent and knowledge cf. M. 135.
For the above 10-fold advantageous and disadvantageous course of action, see kamma-patha For the 5 heinous crimes with immediate result, see: ānantarika-kamma

Owners of their kamma are the beings, heirs of their kamma, their kamma is their womb from which they are born, their kamma is their friend, their refuge. Whatever kamma they perform, good or bad, thereof they will be the heirs M. 135.

With regard to the time of the taking place of the kamma-result vipāka one distinguishes, as mentioned above, 3 kinds of kamma:
1. kamma ripening during the life-time dittha-dhamma-vedanīya kamma
2. kamma ripening in the next birth upapajja-vedanīya-kamma
3. kamma ripening in later births aparāpariya-vedanīya-kamma

The first two kinds of kamma may be without kamma-result vipāka if the circumstances required for the taking place of the kamma-result are missing, or if, through the preponderance of counteractive kamma and their being too weak, they are unable to produce any result. In this case they are called ahosi-kamma lit. 'kamma that has been', in other words, ineffectual kamma.

The third type of kamma, however, which bears fruit in later lives, will, whenever and wherever there is an opportunity, be productive of kamma-result. Before its result has ripened, it will never become ineffective as long as the life-process is kept going by craving and ignorance.

According to the Com., e.g. Vis.M XIX, the 1st of the 7 kammical impulse-moments kamma javana s. javana is considered as 'kamma ripening during the life-time', the 7th moment as 'kamma ripening in the next birth', the remaining 5 moments as 'kamma ripening in later births'.

With regard to their functions one distinguishes:
1. regenerative or productive kamma janaka-kamma,
2. supportive or consolidating kamma upatthambhaka-kamma,
3. counteractive suppressive or frustrating kamma upapīlaka-kamma,
4. destructive or supplanting kamma upaghātaka or upacchedaka-kamma

1 produces the 5 groups of existence materiality, feeling, perception, mental constructions, consciousness at rebirth as well as during life-continuity.
2 does not produce kamma-results but is only able to maintain the already produced kamma-results.
3 counteracts or suppresses the kamma-results.
4 destroys the influence of a weaker kamma and effects only its own result.

With regard to the priority of their result one distinguishes:
1. weighty kamma garuka-kamma,
2. habitual kamma ācinnaka or bahula-kamma,
3. death-proximate kamma maranāsanna-kamma,
4. stored-up kamma katattā-kamma
1, 2: The weighty garuka and the habitual bahula advantageous or disadvantageous kamma are ripening earlier than the light and rarely performed kamma. 3: The death-proximate maranāsanna kamma - i.e. the advantageous or disadvantageous intention present immediately before death, which often may be the reflex of some previously performed good or evil action kamma or of a sign of it kamma-nimitta or of a sign of the future existence gati-nimitta - produces rebirth. 4: In the absence of any of these three actions at the moment before death, the stored-up katattā kamma will produce rebirth.
A real, and in the ultimate sense true, understanding of Buddhist kamma doctrine is possible only through a deep insight into the impersonality see: anattā and conditionality see: paticcasamuppāda paccaya of all phenomena of existence. Everywhere, in all the forms of existence... such a one is beholding merely mental and physical phenomena kept going by their being bound up through causes and effects.

No doer does he see behind the deeds, no recipient apart from the kamma-fruit. And with full insight he clearly understands that the wise ones are using merely conventional terms when, with regard to the taking place of any action, they speak of a doer, or when they speak of a receiver of the kamma-results at their arising. Therefore the ancient masters have said:
'No doer of the deeds is found,
No one who ever reaps their fruits;
Empty phenomena roll on:
This view alone is right and true.
'And whilst the deeds and their results
Roll on, based on conditions all,
There no beginning can be seen,
Just as it is with seed and tree.' Vis.M XIX
Kamma kamma-paccaya is one of the 24 conditions paccaya App.: Kamma.
Literature: Kamma and Rebirth, by Nyanatiloka WHEEL 9; Survival and Kamma in Buddhist Perspective, by K.N. Jayatilleke WHEEL 141/143; Kamma and its Fruit WHEEL 221/224.
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... dic3_k.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Vipāka: 'kamma-result' or 'effect of action', is any kammically morally neutral mental phenomenon e.g. bodily pleasant or painful feeling, sense-consciousness, etc., which is the result of advantageous or disadvantageous intentional action kamma through body, speech or mind, done either in this or some previous life. Totally wrong is the belief that, according to Buddhism, everything is the result of previous action. Never, for example, is any kammically advantageous or disadvantageous intentional action the result of former action, being in reality itself kamma. On this subject see: titthāyatana kamma, Tab. I; Fund II. Cf. A. III, 101; Kath. 162 Guide, p. 80.
Kamma-produced kammaja or kamma-samutthāna material things are never called kamma-vipāka as this term may be applied only to mental phenomena.
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... dic3_v.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Ben »

Hi Retro
So Angulimala experiencing the vedanas of being belted on the head with clods was his kamma but being belted by the clods were not kamma?
Thanks

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,
Ben wrote:So Angulimala experiencing the vedanas of being belted on the head with clods was his kamma but being belted by the clods were not kamma?
This is substantially closer to what I'm saying, yes (though I'd replace the word kamma with vipaka).

But also keep in mind the vedana is a sankhata dhamma (formed dhamma), and that which is formed (sankhata), is formed by ignorance. So what would the vedana of an arahant free of ignorance be like? I think the following extract from one of Venerable Nanananda's Nibbana Sermon 11, as quoted earlier, gives some idea (especially the bolded red bit)
Nāma and rūpa, as well as paṭigha- and rūpasaññā, are
highly significant terms. Paṭigha- and rūpasaññā are equivalent
to paṭighasamphassa and adhivacanasamphassa respectively.
Now as to this perception of form, it is basically conditioned
by contact. That is why the Kalahavivādasutta states
that contact is the cause of the two views of existence and non-
existence.

380S I 13, Jaṭāsutta; cf. volume I sermon 1.

In this Kalahavivādasutta one finds a series of questions
and answers going deeper and deeper into the analysis of contact,
step by step. The question phasso nu lokasmiṃ kutonidāno,
"what is the cause of contact in this world?"; gets
the answer nāmañca rūpañca paṭicca phasso, "dependent on
name-and-form is contact"
.381 The next question is: Kismiṃ
vibhūte na phussanti phassā, "in the absence of what, do contacts
not bring about contact", or, "touches do not touch?" It gets
the answer: Rūpe vibhūte na phusanti phassā, "in the absence
of form, contacts do not bring about contact"
.
The question that comes up next, and the answer given,
are extremely important. They lead to a deep analysis of the
Dhamma, so much so that both verses deserve to be quoted in
full. The question is:
Kathaṃsametassa vibhoti rūpaṃ,
sukhaṃ dukhaṃ vā pi kathaṃ vibhoti,
etaṃ me pabrūhi yathā vibhoti,
taṃ jāniyāmā iti me mano ahu.382
"To one constituted in which manner does form cease to
exist,
Or, how even pleasure and pain cease to exist
,
Do tell me how all these become non-existent,
Let us know this, such a thought arose in me."
381Sn 871-872, Kalahavivādasutta.
382Sn 873, Kalahavivādasutta.

The answer to this question is couched in this extraordinary
verse:
Na saññasaññī na visaññasaññī,
no pi asaññī na vibhūtasaññī,
evaṃ sametassa vibhoti rūpaṃ,
saññānidānā hi papañcasaṅkhā.383
What this verse purports to describe is the state of a person
for whom form as also pleasure and pain has ceased to exist. He
is not one with normal perception, nor is he one with abnormal
perception. He is not non-percipient, nor has he rescinded perception.
It is to one constituted in this manner that form ceases
to exist, for, papañcasaṅkhā - whatever they may be - have perception
as their source.

The meaning of this verse needs to be clarified further. According
to the MahāNiddesa, the allusion in this verse is to one
who is on the path to the formless realms, having attained the
first four absorptions.384 The commentary is forced to that conclusion,
because it takes the phrase na vibhūtasaññī as negating
formless realms as such. The assumption is that the person
referred to is neither conscious with normal perception, nor abnormally
unconscious, nor devoid of perception, as in the attainment
of cessation, nor in one of the formless attainments.
So then, the only possibility seemed to be to identify it with
some intermediate state. That is why the MahāNiddesa and
383Sn 874, Kalahavivādasutta.
384Nidd I 280.

the other commentaries interpret this problematic state as that
of one who is on the path to formless attainments, arūpamaggasamaṅgi.
385
However, considerations of context and presentation would
lead to a different conclusion. The extraordinary state alluded
to by this verse seems to be a surpamundane one, which goes
far deeper than the so-called intermediate state. The transcendence
of form, indicated here, is more radical than the transcendence
in attaining to formless states. It is a transcendence at a
supramundane level
, as we may well infer from the last line of
the verse, saññānidānā hi papañcasaṅkhā. Papañcasaṅkhā is
a term which has a relevance to insight meditation and the denouement
of the sutta is also suggestive of such a background.
The Kalahavivādasutta, consisting of sixteen verses, is, from
beginning to end, a network of deep questions and answers leading
to levels of insight. The opening verse, for instance, states
the initial problem as follows:
Kuto pahūtā kalahā vivādā,
paridevasokā sahamaccharā ca,
mānātimānā saha pesuṇā ca,
kuto pahūtā te tad iṅgha brūhi.386
"Whence do spring up contentions and disputes,
Lamentations, sorrows and envies,
And arrogance together with slander,
385Nidd I 280 and Pj II 553.
386Sn 862, Kalahavivādasutta.

Whence do they spring up, pray tell me this."
It is in answer to this basic question that this discourse gradually
unfolds itself. In accordance with the law of dependent
arising, the cause of contentions and disputes is said to be the
tendency to hold things dear, piyappahūtā kalahā vivādā. Then
the question is about the cause of this idea of holding things
dear. The cause of it is said to be desire, chandanidānāni piyāni
loke. Things dear originate from desire. Desire, or interest,
makes things `dear'.
The next question is: What is the origin of desire? Desire is
traced to the distinction between the pleasant and the unpleasant.
It is in reply to the question regarding the origin of this
distinction between the pleasant and the unpleasant that contact
is brought in. In fact, it is the question as to the origin of
contact, phasso nu lokasmiṃ kuto nidāno, which formed the
starting point of our discussion. The answer to that question is
name-and-form, nāmañca rūpañca. So in this chain of causes,
the link that comes next to contact is name-and-form.

Now the verse in question beginning with na saññasaññī
goes deeper than name-and-form. Even the question about
contact has a peculiar wording: Kismiṃ vibhūte na phusanti
phassā, "When what is not there, do touches not touch?" The
question, then, is not just the cessation of contact as such. The
answer, too, has the same peculiarity. Rūpe vibhūte na phusanti
phassā, "It is when form is not there that touches do not touch".
It is the subsequent question regarding form that brings out the
cryptic verse as the answer.
All this goes to show that the verse in question alludes to a
supramundane state far transcending the formless or any supposed
intermediate stage. The transcendence of pleasure and
pain, as well as perception of form, is implied here.
The verse
beginning with na saññasaññī brings the entire analytical disquisition
to a climax. It comes as the thirteenth verse in the
series. Usually, such a disquisition leads up to a climax, highlighting
Nibbāna. It is obvious, therefore, that the reference
here is to the Nibbānic mind
.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Dan74 »

Sorry to butt in, but there is also a small possibility that the Buddha was helping Ven Angulimala accept what was happening to him and not give rise to unwholesome thoughts. After all, why console him by saying essentially that it was much better that this was happening now than him enduring hell for what he had done?

Of course, there is a possibility that the text isn't faithful to the original exchange too...

As for the various positions - tilt's position seems to be common sense, I am not sure I understand retro's position...
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Dan,
Dan74 wrote:Sorry to butt in, but there is also a small possibility that the Buddha was helping Ven Angulimala accept what was happening to him and not give rise to unwholesome thoughts. After all, why console him by saying essentially that it was much better that this was happening now than him enduring hell for what he had done?
It's an interesting question as to why he would feel the need to say it to an arahant in the first place, who, by definition is incapable of unwholesome thoughts.
Dan74 wrote:Of course, there is a possibility that the text isn't faithful to the original exchange too...
Maybe, maybe not... it just seems to mean different things to different people. On one hand it could be seen as the doling out of a comparatively trifling vipaka (which is the seemingly common interpretation)... or alternatively, it could be a case of, "Well, Angulimala, given all those people you killed, you're damned lucky you've transcended becoming and that therefore this is the only consequence you'll experience as a result of your actions..."
Dan74 wrote:As for the various positions - tilt's position seems to be common sense, I am not sure I understand retro's position...
I'm quite comfortable with that. :)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Ben »

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:This is substantially closer to what I'm saying, yes.
Perhaps its the fresh air, or me turning Tasmanian, but I am struggling to understand the difference.
retrofuturist wrote:But also keep in mind the vedana is a sankhata dhamma (formed dhamma), and that which is formed (sankhata), is formed by ignorance.
Formed? I would say 'conditioned' by ignorance (ultimately) via the agency of contact.
retrofuturist wrote:So what would the vedana of an arahant free of ignorance be like?
Pleasant, unpleasant and neutral.
retrofuturist wrote:I think the following extract from one of Venerable Nanananda's Nibbana Sermon 11, as quoted earlier, gives some idea (especially the bolded red bit)
Thanks, I'll have to read it several times.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,
Ben wrote:Formed?
Whatever English word you use for sankhara or sankhata (past tense) will suffice. To me, sankhara relates to formations, actively formed from a basis of ignorance.
Ben wrote:Pleasant, unpleasant and neutral.
Yes, those qualities would still apply, but these qualities may be experienced differently by the arahant with a lokuttara nibbanic mind (as per the quote from Nanananda)
Ben wrote:Thanks, I'll have to read it several times.
:reading: :reading: :reading: :reading: :reading: :reading: :reading:

Time spent reading venerable Nanananda is time well spent.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by acinteyyo »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings acinteyyo,
acinteyyo wrote:The Buddha's teaching on kamma simply is that kamma bears fruits.
...
But a particular person possibly draws for example hate of locals as a fruit of action. Don't you think?
I think that's over-simplifying it. What you speak here is nothing other than conventional cause and effect... hardly a radical new and profound teaching.
Maybe not that much radical new and profound teaching for today but back then in times of the Buddha. As I see it one has to be very careful here. Sure all that can also be just conventional cause and effect. Even if Angulimala would have killed many people unintentionally he could have also drawn hate of the locals which would IMHO just be conventional cause and effect then. The point is that we can't safely say that Angulimalas intention to kill these people which lead to the act of killing has nothing to do with the very same result of drawing hate of the locals which would then be kamma/vipaka IMHO. This is at least what the Buddha tells Angulimala about it:
The fruit of the kamma [...] you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!"
An experience is nāmarūpa and viññāna and although Angulimala became an arahant he's still experiencing, which is to say there is just presence of the phenomenon ('This is present'), instead of the presence (or existence) of an apparent 'subject' to whom there is present an 'object' ('I am, and this is present to [or for] me'), to say it with the words of Ven. Ñanavira. "Being" an arahant Angulimala is certainly free from suffering, the aggregates of grasping (pañc'upādānakkhandhā) are no longer applicable but the aggregates (pañcakhandhā) still are.
retrofuturist wrote:The five aggregates are our experience. The six senses are our experience.
Where do clods fit in to that? The feel of clods, the taste of clods, the smell of clods, the smell of clods.... but not the clods, in and of themselves, independent of receiving consciousness.
Angulimala experienced feeling (of clod, of cuts)... not "clod" itself.
You can say it that way but this doesn't alter the fact that Angulimala was experiencing, which is to say there was presence of the phenomenon. And I understand this as vipaka of Angulimalas kamma like the Buddha says in that particular sutta.
No mystic mumbo jumbo, kammic gravity vortex or anything like that, just nāmarūpa and viññāna.

And I still see no reason to accept that vipaka should be only mental phenomenon.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings acinteyyo,
acinteyyo wrote:The point is that we can't safely say that Angulimalas intention to kill these people which lead to the act of killing has nothing to do with the very same result of drawing hate of the locals
Here we agree.
acinteyyo wrote:which would then be kamma/vipaka IMHO.

... and here we diverge. Let's say, theoretically, that Angulimala was framed... it was all a stitch-up and that he never killed anybody. People would still throw clods regardless, wouldn't they? Now, what would you attribute that clod throwing activity to? Have a good think about that, and I look forward to your answer.
acinteyyo wrote:This is at least what the Buddha tells Angulimala about it:
The fruit of the kamma [...] you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!"
... and as I asked Tilt, was the Buddha using kamma in a conventional sense (i.e. doing something) or Dhammic sense (i.e. cetana), and was he using fruit in a conventional (i.e. consequence) or Dhammic sense (i.e. experienced resultant)?

Since they're the same words in either case, and the Buddha spoke using conventional and Dhammic terms at different times, who is to say for sure?
acinteyyo wrote:An experience is nāmarūpa and viññāna and although Angulimala became an arahant he's still experiencing, which is to say there is just presence of the phenomenon ('This is present'), instead of the presence (or existence) of an apparent 'subject' to whom there is present an 'object' ('I am, and this is present to [or for] me'), to say it with the words of Ven. Ñanavira. "Being" an arahant Angulimala is certainly free from suffering, the aggregates of grasping (pañc'upādānakkhandhā) are no longer applicable but the aggregates (pañcakhandhā) still are.
Agree.
acinteyyo wrote:You can say it that way but this doesn't alter the fact that Angulimala was experiencing, which is to say there was presence of the phenomenon. And I understand this as vipaka of Angulimalas kamma like the Buddha says in that particular sutta.
I don't see how mere "presence of phenomenon" is connected with kamma and/or vipaka though... perhaps your response to the aforementioned question will give me some insight into your thinking.
acinteyyo wrote:No mystic mumbo jumbo, kammic gravity vortex or anything like that, just nāmarūpa and viññāna.
Good. Though even for those who buy into the mystic mumbo jumbo, tales of kamma are still good as morality teachings or fables to encourage people to do good and avoid bad. That's one positive, even if it's an incomplete picture.
acinteyyo wrote:And I still see no reason to accept that vipaka should be only mental phenomenon.
Well you've have to take that up with ven. Nyanatiloka and the Kathavatthu. In the meantime, I'll repeat that I think the important aspect is that vipaka occurs within loka, not outside of it... and the arahant's experience is lokuttara.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Dan74 »

Hi Retro - thanks for replying
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Dan,
Dan74 wrote:Sorry to butt in, but there is also a small possibility that the Buddha was helping Ven Angulimala accept what was happening to him and not give rise to unwholesome thoughts. After all, why console him by saying essentially that it was much better that this was happening now than him enduring hell for what he had done?
It's an interesting question as to why he would feel the need to say it to an arahant in the first place, who, by definition is incapable of unwholesome thoughts.
Why would the Buddha say that Ven Angulimala, an arahant, would have burned in hell for thousands of years, had he not been injured and suffered the fruit of his kamma then?

Perhaps he was not yet an arahant? What about the mention of his experiencing release later on?
Dan74 wrote:Of course, there is a possibility that the text isn't faithful to the original exchange too...
Maybe, maybe not... it just seems to mean different things to different people. On one hand it could be seen as the doling out of a comparatively trifling vipaka (which is the seemingly common interpretation)... or alternatively, it could be a case of, "Well, Angulimala, given all those people you killed, you're damned lucky you've transcended becoming and that therefore this is the only consequence you'll experience as a result of your actions..."
These two don't seem to contradict one another.
Dan74 wrote:As for the various positions - tilt's position seems to be common sense, I am not sure I understand retro's position...
I'm quite comfortable with that. :)

Metta,
Retro. :)
OK, but thanks for clearing it up anyway.

PS As to your hypothetical question to accinteyyo "what is Angulimala had been framed and still experienced the assault by the villagers" - I guess the traditional answer would be that this would have been the fruit of past kamma from previous lifetimes. I know in the absence of seeing how such mechanism works, such answer is deeply unsatisfying, but there is plenty of canonical evidence for this at least.
Last edited by Dan74 on Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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