General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
PeterB wrote:
I am not big on over regulation but I do wonder whether sniping and poking at Vipassana should not be considered a cause of disruption under the TOS. After all if every time there was a mention of Samatha or The Brahma Viharas it resulted in sniping and poking I think it would cause questions to be asked.
For some reason Vipassana seems to be fair game.
Usually this comes from those who attended one Vipassana retreat and didnt like it or have basic ideological problems with something they have no direct knowledge of.
Personally I think sniping or poking at anything is a bit silly. More coherent discussion backed up with good references would be nice.
We had a great example of a good discussion here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7360" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”
Where members argued politely and coherently, with good references, sentences, and punctuation.
legolas wrote:You say a bunch of guys and gals have "verified" it over 2500 years. Has it not been merely recited, written down and venerated - much like the bible. ...
Not at all. They claim to have verified it through personal experience.
You seem to be implying that thousands of ancient and modern Bhikkhus were mistaken in (or lied about) their experiences.
And that one or two modern Bhikkhus figured out the truth all by themselves...
Mike
Do you have any quotes from either sutta or Commentary that say painful sensations are a prelude to nibbana.
Or are you only referring to the authenticty of the Patasam...?
My main point was that the nanas explicitly state that pain is a neccessary part in awakening. It is a stage in the awakening process that I cannot find any evidence of within the suttas.
in fact there are no Commentaries related to nanas that suggest painful feeling is necessary part of the awakening process. I haven't even been able to find the parts about fluttering eyelids, although these must be there I am sure..
robertk wrote:Do you have any quotes from either sutta or Commentary that say painful sensations are a prelude to nibbana.
Prelude. Is that what the two links say? Painful sensation is a good object of awareness in terms of insights seen from it. There is a reason that dukkha is the first Noble truth.
Or are you only referring to the authenticty of the Patasam...?
It is as authentic as the Abhidhamma Pitaka texts.
>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
PeterB wrote:I am not big on over regulation but I do wonder whether sniping and poking at Vipassana should not be considered a cause of disruption under the TOS. After all if every time there was a mention of Samatha or The Brahma Viharas it resulted in sniping and poking I think it would cause questions to be asked.
For some reason Vipassana seems to be fair game.
Usually this comes from those who attended one Vipassana retreat and didnt like it or have basic ideological problems with something they have no direct knowledge of.
Discussing this at length in this thread would obviously be off-topic. Certainly people can voice here disagreements with the Burmese vipassana traditions. That is not the problem I am complaining about. It is the one-liners with no real discussion that constitutes an unnecessarily jejune behavior, adding nothing of substance to the discussion.
As Mike says: More coherent discussion backed up with good references would be nice.
>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
legolas wrote: I think I can agree with some of what you say except "the more practical way" this seems to involve dragging one's attention away from the internal process.
It is simply a matter of paying attention without comment to what is happening in the mind/body process: In the seen, the seen . . . .
As far as pain goes, facing pain down is certainly one way of dealing with it - personally I find the practice of releasing the pain and trying to intentionally direct the mind to calming the body/mind, a practice that fits with sutta instructions on meditation. This leaves one in a better position (through having a calm mind and tranquil body) to see arising and passing.
It is not a matter of "facing down pain." Not by a long shot. It is a matter of paying attention to the pain one is experiencing. "Releasing the pain" means what? What is possible, as one's mindfulness and concentration develop, is paying attention to one's pain.
My main point was that the nanas explicitly state that pain is a neccessary part in awakening. It is a stage in the awakening process that I cannot find any evidence of within the suttas.
Using the OP link and the Mahasi Sayadaw link I gave, show us what you are saying is so.
Using the link from the original post...............
"It should be noted that the clear realization of impermanence is a specific characteristic of the Sammasana-ñana, and it means that the meditator will face many painful sensations."
legolas wrote:
"It should be noted that the clear realization of impermanence is a specific characteristic of the Sammasana-ñana, and it means that the meditator will face many painful sensations."
And this is not true why?
>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
legolas wrote:However as far as I am aware it is the suttas that take precedence and since even in the suttas these teachings are not mentioned in the 1st council - I was drawing a glaringly obvious conclusion - the Paṭisambhidāmagga was added at a later time.
The underlying structure of the eighteen insight-ñāṇa-s as presented in the Paṭisambhidāmagga can be traced to the suttas. They are termed "contemplation" (anupassanā) and "gnosis of contemplation" (anupassanāñāṇa) in the Paṭisambhidāmagga, and are either termed "recognition" (saññā) or "contemplation" (anupassanā) in the suttas. The most well known sutta source is the fourth tetrad of the Ānāpānassati Sutta: contemplation of impermanence (aniccānupassana), contemplation of dispassion (virāgānupassana), contemplation of cessation (nirodhānupassanā), contemplation of release (paṭinissaggānupassana). Other suttas expand on this structure:
AN 10.60 (PTS A v 108): Recognition of impermanence (aniccasaññā)
AN 7.49 (ATI 7.46, PTS A iv 46)
AN 7.95 (PTS A iv 145)
SN 46.71 (PTS S v 132, CDB 1620)
AN 7.49 (ATI 7.46, PTS A iv 46): Recognition of unsatisfactoriness in what is impermanent (anicca dukkhasaññā)
AN 7.96 (PTS A iv 146)
SN 46.72 (PTS S v 132, CDB 1620)
AN 10.60 (PTS A v 108): Recognition of selflessness (anattasaññā)
AN 7.49 (ATI 7.46, PTS A iv 46): Recognition of selflessness in what is unsatisfactory (dukkha anattasaññā)
AN 7.97 (PTS A iv 146)
SN 46.73 (PTS S v 133, CDB 1620)
AN 7.98 (PTS A iv 146): Recognition of decay (khayasaññā)
AN 7.99 (PTS A iv 146): Recognition of passing away (vayasaññā)
AN 10.60 PTS A v 108: Recognition of dispassion (virāgasaññā)
AN 7.100 (PTS A iv 146)
SN 46.75 (PTS S v 133, CDB 1621)
AN 10.60 (PTS A v 108): Recognition of cessation (nirodhasaññā)
AN 7.101 (PTS A iv 146)
SN 46.76 (PTS S v 133, CDB 1621)
AN 7.102 (PTS A iv 146): Recognition of release (paṭinissaggasaññā)
Cf. the eighteen insight-ñāṇa-s as presented in the Paṭisambhidāmagga:
(1) contemplation of impermanence (aniccānupassanā), (2) contemplation of unsatisfactoriness (dukkhānupassanā), (3) contemplation of selflessness (anattānupnupassanā), (4) contemplation of disenchantment (nibbidānupassanā), (5) contemplation of dispassion (virāgānupassanā), (6) contemplation of cessation (nirodhānupassanā), (7) contemplation of release (paṭinissaggānupassanāā), (8) contemplation of decay (khayānupassanā), (9) contemplation of passing away (vayānupassanā), (10) contemplation of change (vipariṇāmānupassanā), (11) contemplation of signlessness (animittānupassanā), (12) contemplation of desirelessness (apaṇihitānupassanā), (13) contemplation of emptiness (suññatāupassanā), (14) clear seeing of dhamma with heightened discernment (adhipaññādhammavipassanā), (15) gnosis and vision of things as they are (yathābhūtañāṇadassana), (16) contemplation of misery/danger (ādīnavānupassanā), (17) reflexive contemplation (paṭisaṅkhānupassanā), (18) contemplation of turning away (vivaṭṭanānupassanā).
Thus, the Paṭisambhidāmagga is just an elaboration of suttanta materials. Of course, what the Paṭisambhidāmagga presents is not the same as the Visuddhimagga, which again reformulates these 18 contemplations and interprets phenomena according to the theory of radical momentariness. And it's possible that modern Burmese based interpretations of the insight-gnoses may not fully reflect what is presented in the Visuddhimagga.
legolas wrote:
Dukkha is not synonyomous with pain.
And that is one of the direct insights - not just an intellectual construct - that one can see as pain is an object of mindfulness.
I think you miss my point. Pain can truly be an object of mindfulness, however pain is not a necessity and seeing the arising of dukkha does not HAVE to entail the arising of pain. The whole point of jhana is to be able to see the pointless grasping at constructs that arise and fall of their own accord. The tranquility of body and mind is the perfect place from which to watch this seemingly endless display. To watch this display with a body that is agitated according to the Buddha was not conducive.....................
"And as I remained thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, thinking imbued with renunciation arose. I discerned that 'Thinking imbued with renunciation has arisen in me; and that leads neither to my own affliction, nor to the affliction of others, nor to the affliction of both. It fosters discernment, promotes lack of vexation, & leads to Unbinding. If I were to think & ponder in line with that even for a night... even for a day... even for a day & night, I do not envision any danger that would come from it, except that thinking & pondering a long time would tire the body. When the body is tired, the mind is disturbed; and a disturbed mind is far from concentration.' So I steadied my mind right within, settled, unified, & concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind would not be disturbed.
legolas wrote:
"It should be noted that the clear realization of impermanence is a specific characteristic of the Sammasana-ñana, and it means that the meditator will face many painful sensations."
And this is not true why?
It actually states that pain is an actual station in the process to awakening. If you think that the suttas state this then that is your judgement. The original poster seemed to be questioning this. The Buddha described his own path to awakening as opening up to the pleasure that is not connected with sensual pleasure.
legolas wrote:However as far as I am aware it is the suttas that take precedence and since even in the suttas these teachings are not mentioned in the 1st council - I was drawing a glaringly obvious conclusion - the Paṭisambhidāmagga was added at a later time.
The underlying structure of the eighteen insight-ñāṇa-s as presented in the Paṭisambhidāmagga can be traced to the suttas. They are termed "contemplation" (anupassanā) and "gnosis of contemplation" (anupassanāñāṇa) in the Paṭisambhidāmagga, and are either termed "recognition" (saññā) or "contemplation" (anupassanā) in the suttas. The most well known sutta source is the fourth tetrad of the Ānāpānassati Sutta: contemplation of impermanence (aniccānupassana), contemplation of dispassion (virāgānupassana), contemplation of cessation (nirodhānupassanā), contemplation of release (paṭinissaggānupassana). Other suttas expand on this structure:
AN 10.60 (PTS A v 108): Recognition of impermanence (aniccasaññā)
AN 7.49 (ATI 7.46, PTS A iv 46)
AN 7.95 (PTS A iv 145)
SN 46.71 (PTS S v 132, CDB 1620)
AN 7.49 (ATI 7.46, PTS A iv 46): Recognition of unsatisfactoriness in what is impermanent (anicca dukkhasaññā)
AN 7.96 (PTS A iv 146)
SN 46.72 (PTS S v 132, CDB 1620)
AN 10.60 (PTS A v 108): Recognition of selflessness (anattasaññā)
AN 7.49 (ATI 7.46, PTS A iv 46): Recognition of selflessness in what is unsatisfactory (dukkha anattasaññā)
AN 7.97 (PTS A iv 146)
SN 46.73 (PTS S v 133, CDB 1620)
AN 7.98 (PTS A iv 146): Recognition of decay (khayasaññā)
AN 7.99 (PTS A iv 146): Recognition of passing away (vayasaññā)
AN 10.60 PTS A v 108: Recognition of dispassion (virāgasaññā)
AN 7.100 (PTS A iv 146)
SN 46.75 (PTS S v 133, CDB 1621)
AN 10.60 (PTS A v 108): Recognition of cessation (nirodhasaññā)
AN 7.101 (PTS A iv 146)
SN 46.76 (PTS S v 133, CDB 1621)
AN 7.102 (PTS A iv 146): Recognition of release (paṭinissaggasaññā)
Cf. the eighteen insight-ñāṇa-s as presented in the Paṭisambhidāmagga:
(1) contemplation of impermanence (aniccānupassanā), (2) contemplation of unsatisfactoriness (dukkhānupassanā), (3) contemplation of selflessness (anattānupnupassanā), (4) contemplation of disenchantment (nibbidānupassanā), (5) contemplation of dispassion (virāgānupassanā), (6) contemplation of cessation (nirodhānupassanā), (7) contemplation of release (paṭinissaggānupassanāā), (8) contemplation of decay (khayānupassanā), (9) contemplation of passing away (vayānupassanā), (10) contemplation of change (vipariṇāmānupassanā), (11) contemplation of signlessness (animittānupassanā), (12) contemplation of desirelessness (apaṇihitānupassanā), (13) contemplation of emptiness (suññatāupassanā), (14) clear seeing of dhamma with heightened discernment (adhipaññādhammavipassanā), (15) gnosis and vision of things as they are (yathābhūtañāṇadassana), (16) contemplation of misery/danger (ādīnavānupassanā), (17) reflexive contemplation (paṭisaṅkhānupassanā), (18) contemplation of turning away (vivaṭṭanānupassanā).
Thus, the Paṭisambhidāmagga is just an elaboration of suttanta materials. Of course, what the Paṭisambhidāmagga presents is not the same as the Visuddhimagga, which again reformulates these 18 contemplations and interprets phenomena according to the theory of radical momentariness. And it's possible that modern Burmese based interpretations of the insight-gnoses may not fully reflect what is presented in the Visuddhimagga.
All the best,
Geoff
Hi Geoff,
I looked up a few of your sutta references and I am sorry but I do not see the correlation to the eighteen insight knowledges.
