A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

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Sylvester
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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by Sylvester »

Dmytro wrote:Hi Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote:If you look at how other suttas present raganusaya and how it anuseti sukha vedana, it becomes clear that raganusaya is the consequence of raga. Eg from SN 36.6 -
Having been touched by that painful feeling, he resists (and resents) it. Then in him who so resists (and resents) that painful feeling, an underlying tendency of resistance against that painful feeling comes to underlie (his mind). Under the impact of that painful feeling he then proceeds to enjoy sensual happiness. And why does he do so? An untaught worldling, O monks, does not know of any other escape from painful feelings except the enjoyment of sensual happiness. Then in him who enjoys sensual happiness, an underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feelings comes to underlie (his mind).

Tassāyeva kho pana dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno paṭighavā hoti. Tamenaṃ dukkhāya vedanāya paṭighavantaṃ, yo dukkhāya vedanāya paṭighānusayo, so anuseti. So dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno kāmasukhaṃ abhinandati. Taṃ kissa hetu? Na hi so, bhikkhave, pajānāti assutavā puthujjano aññatra kāmasukhā dukkhāya vedanāya nissaraṇaṃ, tassa kāmasukhañca abhinandato, yo sukhāya vedanāya rāgānusayo, so anuseti.
Here I would disagree. Anusaya is an underlying tendency that gets activated:
"Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there arises what is felt either as pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain. If, when touched by a feeling of pleasure, one does not relish it, welcome it, or remain fastened to it, then one's passion-obsession doesn't get obsessed.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And thanks to the development if wisdom, these tendencies can be removed, especially on the basis of samadhi.
Hello Dmytro

I guess we do have to agree to disagree.

It's strange how when we both look at the same sutta, we arrive at different conclusions. From an earlier passage in the same sutta -
Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there arises what is felt either as pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain. If, when touched by a feeling of pleasure, one relishes it, welcomes it, or remains fastened to it, then one's passion-obsession gets obsessed.
Looking at both statements, they do appear to be conditional statements, not categorical ones. The verbs are qualified by "if". Ven Bodhi's translation of the same passage also couches the statements as conditional statements. Which does suggest that even putthujanas can, with the satipatthanas, prevent raga from overtaking the sukha vedana, and thereby activating/lying with the raganusaya.

This does fit in rather nicely with MN 44 that not all raganusaya have to be pahatabbo/abandoned with respect to sukha. They just arise if raga is present.
Sylvester
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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by Sylvester »

Ñāṇa wrote:
Sylvester wrote:May I take it that none of these 3 statements of yours were intended to be a reference to Ajahn Brahm's description of the Jhanas?
They were a reference to the dangers of extreme absorption samādhis, especially if one isn't already at a very advanced stage of awakening with most defilements and underlying tendencies already extinguished (i.e. non-returner or arahant). The four jhānas as sammāsamādhi are not extreme absorptions devoid of comprehension.
Sylvester wrote:May I also take it that you are not saying that the Jhanas as described by Ajahn Brahm are asañña?
In the context of jhāna he uses saññā, sati, and sampajañña in such a restrictive sense that there is no meaningful differentiation between them. Both saññā and sampajañña are functional aspects of comprehension. These dhammas occur and function in all four jhānas.

Sigh, how difficult can it be to give a categorical Yes or No to either question?

Must I invoke Vajirapani yet again?

While you mull over my request, pls indulge my curiosity which has been piqued by your statement -
And both vipassati and the dhamma-investigation awakening factor are multifaceted. They take on different levels of meaning at different stages of insight.
What does this mean? The existence of an avitakka avicara dhammavicayasambojjhanga? Since my preference is for the suttas in the 4 Nikayas, let's start there first for citations, if you don't mind. I do not disagree with your statement above that "Both saññā and sampajañña are functional aspects of comprehension", but I'm intrigued by the quality of dhammavicaya in the sutta jhanas as you see it, particularly its relation to the vacisankharas.

While we are at it, since you seem to feel that vipassati and dhammavicayasambojjhanga take on different levels of meaning at different stages of insight, what is there to say that the quality of sati, sampajanna and sanna do not also evolve with progression into and through the Jhanas? Certainly, DN 9 is very clear that the contents of the "perceptions" in each Jhana changes. Is the same level of sati, sampajanna and sanna needed with each different "object" of the perception? After all, the suttas' standard formula for the transition from 3rd Jhana to 4th Jhana is quite explicit in the qualitative changes in the sati and upekkha.
morning mist
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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by morning mist »

Hi Dmytro,
Dmytro wrote:
morning mist wrote:" This ATTENTIVE stillness that is able to sustain awareness on one thing is called samadhi."

" Samadhi is the attentive stillness that is able to sustain attention on one thing"- Ajahn Brahm
The whole puprose of samma-samadhi is the development of wisdom:
Hence samadhi without comprehension is worthless.......
The way I understand what he meant by "attentive stillness" is that the mind is aware yet it is not moving from one object to another, from one thought to another.

The suttas stated that :

“When he has abandoned these, there still remain thoughts about the dhamma (dhamma vitakka). That samadhi is not yet peaceful and sublime; it has not attained to full tranquillity , nor has it achieved mental unification (ekodibhava) ; it is maintained by strenuous suppression of the defilements . –Pamsudhovaka Sutta


Some suggest that we engage Sanna ( perception) during Samma samadhi for insight, but according to these suttas that doesn't seem to be the case:

 " Any desire-passion with regard to perception of  ideas ( dhamma sanna)  is a defilement of the mind ( cittasseso upakkileso) . When, with regard to these six bases, the defilements of awareness are abandoned, then the mind is inclined to renunciation. The mind fostered by renunciation feels malleable for the direct knowing  ( abbhina: special knowledge, supranormal knowledge) of those qualities worth realizing ( sacchikaraniyesu: fit to be realized) ."


We should be calming it ( sanna ) down instead of engaging it to stir it up . According to the Anapanasati sutta:

5. ‘I shall breathe in experiencing piti (rapture) ’; trains thus, ‘I shall breathe out experiencing piti (rapture) ’;

6. He trains thus, ‘I shall breathe in experiencing sukha’; he trains thus, ‘I shall breathe out experiencing sukha’;

7. He trains thus, ‘I shall breathe in experiencing the mental formation’ ( perception and feeling) ; He trains thus, ‘I shall breathe out experiencing the mental formation’ ( perception and feeling) ;

8. He trains thus, ‘I shall breathe in calming the mental formation’( perception and feeling) ; He trains thus, ‘I shall breathe out calming the mental formation ( perception and feeling)’ - Anapanasati sutta

Note: mental formations are perception and feeling according to MN 44

Dmytro wrote: But somehow Brahmavamso deems the work on developing wisdom unnecessary.
Insight can be developed after instead of during Samma Samadhi. There is actually a whole section towards the end of his book devoted to Insight. But this is not in the little booklet, so some believe that he only teaches Samatha with no vipassana. But he emphasizes both Samatha and Vipassana which is Bhavana. There is no need for samatha and vipassana to compete, both has a place and time in this path.

“When he has abandoned these, there still remain thoughts about the dhamma (dhamma vitakka). That samadhi is not yet peaceful and sublime; it has not attained to full tranquillity , nor has it achieved mental unification (ekodibhava) ; it is maintained by strenuous suppression of the defilements .

But there comes a time when his mind becomes inwardly steadied , composed , unified (ekodi), and concentrated ( samadhiyati) . That samadhi is then calm and refined; it has attained to full tranquillity and achieved mental unification (ekodibhava); it is not maintained by strenuous suppression of the defilements. Then to whatever dhamma realizable by supernormal knowledge he directs his mind, he achieves the capacity of realizing that state by supernormal knowledge, whenever the necessary conditions obtain .” –Pamsudhovaka Sutta


Vipassana Preceded by Samatha
“Here, friends, a bhikkhu develops insight preceded by tranquillity (Samatha-pubbaṅgamaṃ vipassanam). As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path arises in him. He now frequents that path, cultivates, and pursues it.  While he is doing so his fetters are abandoned and the underlying tendencies destroyed."- Yuganaddha Sutta ( AN 4.170) Four Ways to Arahantship

With Metta,
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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by Nyana »

morning mist wrote:The suttas stated that :

“When he has abandoned these, there still remain thoughts about the dhamma (dhamma vitakka). That samadhi is not yet peaceful and sublime; it has not attained to full tranquillity , nor has it achieved mental unification (ekodibhava) ; it is maintained by strenuous suppression of the defilements . –Pamsudhovaka Sutta
It is sammāsamādhi which enables the mind to attend to phenomena without strenuous suppression of defilements. Sense restraint (indriya saṃvara) plays an important role in this regard. And as the following sutta informs us, when the mind is concentrated, phenomena become apparent. Due to phenomena becoming apparent, one is designated as 'one who abides diligently.' SN 35.97 Pamādavihārī Sutta:
  • And how, monks, does one abide diligently? If one abides with restraint over the eye faculty, the mind is not scattered among forms cognizable by the eye. If the mind is not scattered, gladness is born. When one is gladdened, joy is born. When the mind is uplifted by joy, the body becomes tranquil. With a tranquil body, one abides with pleasure. A pleasurable mind becomes concentrated. When the mind is concentrated, phenomena become apparent. Due to phenomena becoming apparent, one is designated as ‘one who abides diligently.’

    If one abides with restraint over the ear faculty, the mind is not scattered among sounds cognizable by the ear.... If one abides with restraint over the nose faculty, the mind is not scattered among odors cognizable by the nose.... If one abides with restraint over the tongue faculty, the mind is not scattered among flavors cognizable by the tongue.... If one abides with restraint over the body faculty, the mind is not scattered among tactual objects cognizable by the body....

    If one abides with restraint over the mind faculty, the mind is not scattered among mental phenomena cognizable by the mind. If the mind is not scattered, gladness is born. When one is gladdened, joy is born. When the mind is uplifted by joy, the body becomes tranquil. With a tranquil body, one abides with pleasure. A pleasurable mind becomes concentrated. When the mind is concentrated, phenomena become apparent. Due to phenomena becoming apparent, one is designated as ‘one who abides diligently.’
morning mist wrote:According to the Maha-Saccaka Sutta, after the fourth jhana the Buddha directed his mind towards the three knowledges:
SN 8.7 Pavāraṇā Sutta states that of 500 arahants present, 60 had triple knowledge (tevijjā), 60 had the six higher gnoses (chaḷabhiññā), 60 were liberated both ways (ubhatobhāgavimuttā, meaning jhānas & formless attainments), and all of the rest were liberated through discernment (paññāvimuttā). Thus, even amongst a large assembly of arahants the majority hadn't developed the formless attainments or realized the knowledge of past lives and passing away and reappearance of beings associated with triple knowledge and the six higher gnoses.
morning mist wrote:According to the structure of the realms and the jhanas
There is no direct one-to-one correspondence between the three worlds (lokas) and the three spheres (avacaras) as classification schemes of related phenomena. A human being who abides in jhāna is still in the kāmaloka, but his or her mind and mental factors are not engaged with any phenomena which would give rise to sensual pleasure (kāma). This can lead to rebirth in the rūpaloka. Thus, the mind and mental factors (cittacetasikā) of rūpāvacarajjhāna are similar to the mind and mental factors of deities abiding in the rūpaloka, but abiding in rūpāvacarajjhāna doesn't mean that one has entered the rūpaloka.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by morning mist »

Hi Nana,
Ñāṇa wrote: even amongst a large assembly of arahants the majority hadn't developed the formless attainments or realized the knowledge of past lives and passing away and reappearance of beings associated with triple knowledge and the six higher gnoses.
Of course, even one jhana is sufficient for the development of Arahantship. Not all will need all four jhanas or the formless states. But you can see that the three knowledges or the six abhinnas are not off limit to disciples.
Ñāṇa wrote: but abiding in rūpāvacarajjhāna doesn't mean that one has entered the rūpaloka.
I am not saying that you are in rupa loka when in jhana, I am just showing the connection in how the word rupa is used in the context of rupasanna. It doesn't refer to " bodily sensation", but "Perception of Materiality" instead. That's the recent translation from Bhikkhu Bodhi's book. It makes sense because it is referring to the perception of things in rupa jhana. There is a connection between the rupa jhana and rupa loka. It leads to rebirth there if one doesn't develop insight.

The Sangiti Sutta points out that :" By the attainments of the first jhana, kamasanna ( ( perception of five sense objects & sense desires, perception of the things of the kama loka, perception of sensuality ) cease (niruddhā)"

káma may denote:
1.objective sensuality, the five sense-objects.
2. subjective sensuality, 'sense-desire';

1. Objective sensuality is, in the canonical texts, mostly called káma-guna, 'cords (or strands) of sensuality'.
"There are 5 cords of sensuality: the visible objects, cognizable by eye-consciousness, that are desirable, cherished, pleasant, lovely, sensuous and alluring; the sounds ... smells ... tastes ... bodily impressions cognizable by body-consciousness, that are desirable .... " (D. 33; M. 13, 26, 59, 66).

2. Subjective sensuality, or sense-desire, is directed to all five sense-objects

- Ven. Nyanatiloka

With metta,
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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by Nyana »

Sylvester wrote:Sigh, how difficult can it be to give a categorical Yes or No to either question?
I don't have direct knowledge of Ven. Brahmavamso's mind, therefore I'm not in a position to make categorical statements. But it should be quite clear by now that I don't consider what he describes to be consistent with what is described and defined as jhāna in the canon and commentaries.
Sylvester wrote:
And both vipassati and the dhamma-investigation awakening factor are multifaceted. They take on different levels of meaning at different stages of insight.
What does this mean?
It means that vipassanā is a profound subject with many subtleties that are difficult to communicate and are therefore not found in suttas or books. The suttas point the way, but it's up to each individual to carry out the practice injunctions and directly realize the dhamma for him or herself. It's much more than just thinking about dhammas. Your suggestion that vipassanā should require engagement in discursive thought fails to appreciate the subtleties of the process. At advanced stages of vipassanā, the clear seeing becomes reflexive (paṭivipassanā), which means that the meditating mind directly discerns the process of knowing itself. This requires a highly refined samādhi, one in which the reflexiveness of the mind and cognitive factors becomes apparent. Comprehension is essential.
Sylvester wrote:what is there to say that the quality of sati, sampajanna and sanna do not also evolve with progression into and through the Jhanas?
Of course. They develop. The purpose of sammāsamādhi is just this mental development (bhāvanā) which culminates in gnosis.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by morning mist »

Hi Dmytro,
Dmytro wrote: But for some reason, Brahmavamso writes that the attachment to jhana is impossible:

"It is very odd, therefore, that some suggest that the practise of Jhana leads to attachment. How can, what is the practice of letting go, lead to attachment?"
http://www.viet.net/anson/ebud/ebmed075.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The context in which I understand the above statement is that it doesn't lead to attachment to sensual pleasure. In one of his sutta study talk he said that what is the result of being attached to jhana? Then mentioned what the Buddha said.
‘“ṭhānaṃ kho panetaṃ, cunda, vijjati, yaṃ aññatitthiyā paribbājakā evaṃ vadeyyuṃ -- ‘ime panāvuso, cattāro sukhallikānuyoge anuyuttānaṃ viharataṃ kati phalāni katānisaṃsā pāṭikaṅkhā’ ’ti?

" Then such adherents of other sects might ask: " Well then, those who are given to the attachment to (sukhallikānuyoge) these four forms of pleasure-seeking- how many fruits , how many benefits can they expect?

" And you should reply: " They can expect four fruits, four benefits. What are they ?

The first is when a monk by the destruction of three fetters has become a Stream -Winner, no more subject to rebirth in lower worlds, firmly established, destined for full enlightenment.

" The second is when a monk by the complete destruction of three fetters and the reduction of greed, hatred and delusion , has become a Once-Returner, and having returned once more to this world, will put an end to suffering.

"The third is when a monk by the complete destruction of the five lower fetters, has been spontaneously reborn , and there iwll reach Nibbana without returning from that world.

"The fourth is when a monk, by the destruction of the corruptions in this very life has, by his own knowledge and realization , attained to Arahantship, to the deliverance of heart and through wisdom.

" Such are the four fruits and the four benefits that one given to the attachment to (sukhallikānuyoge) these four forms of pleasure -seeking can expect." - Pasadika Sutta


And why did he say that jhana is the practice of letting go ? If we look at the process , we see that to get into jhana we have to let go of the desire, aversion, etc..As we move to the next jhana, there is the need to let go of the previous jhana and various factors. To move from jhana to jhana a person needs to let go more and more. It can be called the process of cessation ( nirodha) .

" Nine successive cessations ( anupubba-nirodha):

" By the attainments of the first jhana, kamasanna ( perception of five sense objects & sense desires, perception of the things of the kama loka , perception of sensuality) cease (niruddhā);
by the attainments of the second jhana, vitakkavicārā cease;
by the attainments of the third jhana,rapure ( piti) ceases;
by the attainments of the fourth jhana, in and out breathing (assāsapassāssā) cease ;
by the attainments of the Sphere of Infinite space, the perception of materiality ( rupasanna: perception of form) ceases ;
by the attainments of the Sphere of Infinite consciousness, the perception of the Sphere of Infinite space (ākāsānañcāyatanasaññā) cease;
by the attainments of the Sphere of No-thingness, the perception of Sphere of Infinite consciousness cease;
by the attainments of the Neither Perception Nor Non Perception, the perception of No-thingness cease;
by the attainments of the "Cessation of Perception and Feeling", perception and feeling (saññā ca vedanā) cease." - Sangiti Sutta

With Metta,
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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by Nyana »

morning mist wrote: The Sangiti Sutta points out that :" By the attainments of the first jhana, kamasanna ( perception of five sense objects & sense desires ) cease (niruddhā)"
Yes, this was already addressed. The seclusion from kāmehi in the jhāna formula refers to both the objects of sensual pleasure (vatthukāmā) and the defilements of sensual pleasure (kilesakāmā). In commentarial terms, the form portion of the "whole body" experienced in jhāna is mind-produced form which pervades the physical body. The Dīghanikāyaṭīkā:
  • Mind-produced form (cittajarūpa) suffuses every area where there is kamma-produced form (kammajarūpa).
This subtle felt-sense of the body being pervaded by pleasure (J1 & J2) and by equanimity (J3 & J4) is a part of the phenomenology of jhāna as an experience.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by Assaji »

Hi Morning Mist,
morning mist wrote: RUPA SANNA : Accordingly, this is Fine Material Perception or Form Perception or Perception of form
rupa jhana
If you were really interested in the Pali texts, I would recommend you the thread:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5595" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by morning mist »

Hi Nana,

It's true that " permeating the body" mentioned in the jhanas refers to the mental body rather than the physical body, because the perception of five sense objects & sense desires, perception of the things of the kama loka have been left behind in jhana.

Hi Dmytro,

Thanks for sharing. Rupa in Rupasanna is used similar to the way it is used in Rupaloka ( Fine material realm instead of body. Therefore it should be rendered as Perception of Materiality / Perception of Form instead of bodily sensations.

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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by Nyana »

morning mist wrote:It's true that " permeating the body" mentioned in the jhanas refers to the mental body rather than the physical body, because the perception of five sense objects & sense desires, perception of the things of the kama loka have been left behind in jhana.
Yes, but it's important to understand that what is designated as the mental body is not a disembodied experience. The experience of the whole body (sabba kāya) still includes a refined experience of the body. Peṭakopadesa 7.72:
  • The twofold bodily and mental pain does not arise in one steadied in directed thought and evaluation, and the twofold bodily and mental pleasure does arise. The mental pleasure thus produced from directed thought is joy, while the bodily pleasure is bodily feeling.
The Vimuttimagga:
  • Just as the bath-powder when inside and outside saturated with moisture, adheres and does not scatter, so the body of the meditator in the first jhāna is permeated with joy and pleasure from top to bottom, from the skullcap to the feet and from the feet to the skullcap, skin and hair, inside and outside. And he dwells without falling back. Thus he dwells like a Brahma god.

    [Q.] Joy (pīti) and pleasure (sukha) are said to be formless phenomena (arūpa-dhamma). How then can they stay permeating the body?

    [A.] Name (nāma) depends on form (rūpa). Form depends on name. Therefore, if name has joy, form also has joy. If name has pleasure, form also has pleasure.

    Again, form born from joy causes tranquility of body, and when the entire body is tranquillized there is pleasure due to the tranquility of form.
    Therefore there is no contradiction.
The Dīghanikāyaṭīkā:
  • Mind-produced form (cittajarūpa) suffuses every area where there is kamma-produced form (kammajarūpa).
All the best,

Geoff
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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by Assaji »

Hi Morning Mist,
morning mist wrote:Thanks for sharing. Rupa in Rupasanna is used similar to the way it is used in Rupaloka ( Fine material realm instead of body. Therefore it should be rendered as Perception of Materiality / Perception of Form instead of bodily sensations.
That's what I was saying. Have you read the thread you thanked for? I'll quote it here:

The second meaning of rūpasaññā occurs in the description of transition from fourth to fifth jhana:

“Puna capara.m, po.t.thapaada, bhikkhu sabbaso ruupasa~n~naana.m samatikkamaa pa.tighasa~n~naana.m attha"ngamaa naanattasa~n~naana.m amanasikaaraa ‘ananto aakaaso’ti aakaasaana~ncaayatana.m upasampajja viharati. Tassa yaa purimaa ruupasa~n~naa saa nirujjhati. Aakaasaana~ncaayatanasukhumasaccasa~n~naa tasmi.m samaye hoti, aakaasaana~ncaayatanasukhumasaccasa~n~niiyeva tasmi.m samaye hoti. Evampi sikkhaa ekaa sa~n~naa uppajjati, sikkhaa ekaa sa~n~naa nirujjhati. Ayampi sikkhaa”ti bhagavaa avoca.

"And then, with the complete transcending of recognitions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of recognitions of sense impressions, and not heeding recognitions of diversity, thinking, 'Infinite space,' the monk enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space. His earlier recognition of a refined truth of neither pleasure nor pain ceases, and on that occasion there is a recognition of a refined truth of the dimension of the infinitude of space. On that occasion he is one who is recognizing a refined truth of the dimension of the infinitude of space. And thus it is that with training one recognition arises and with training another recognition ceases.

Potthapada sutta, Digha Nikaya 9, DN 1.183

Vibhanga explains this meaning:

602. “Sabbaso ruupasa~n~naana.m samatikkamaa”ti tattha katamaa ruupasa~n~naa? Ruupaavacarasamaapatti.m samaapannassa vaa upapannassa vaa di.t.thadhammasukhavihaarissa vaa sa~n~naa sa~njaananaa sa~njaanitatta.m– imaa vuccanti “ruupasa~n~naayo”. Imaa ruupasa~n~naayo atikkanto hoti viitikkanto samatikkanto. Tena vuccati “sabbaso ruupasa~n~naana.m samatikkamaa”ti.

Vibhanga 261

as relating to first four jhanas (ruupaa-vacara-samaapatti) or pleasant abiding in here and now (di.t.tha-dhamma-sukha-vihaara), which are synonyms. Arupa jhanas (on infinite space, etc.) are not called abiding in here and now.

This shows that in first four jhanas meditator clearly perceives the environment (form realm, ruupaa-vacara), with physical senses, while in formless (aruupa) jhanas such perception ceases.

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5595" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by morning mist »

Dmytro wrote:
morning mist wrote:Thanks for sharing. Rupa in Rupasanna is used similar to the way it is used in Rupaloka ( Fine material realm instead of body. Therefore it should be rendered as Perception of Materiality / Perception of Form instead of bodily sensations.
That's what I was saying. Have you read the thread you thanked for? I'll quote it here:

The second meaning of rūpasaññā occurs in the description of transition from fourth to fifth jhana:
That is the rupasanna that we have been talking about. Sylvester pointed out that the updated translation is Perception of Form , or Perception of Materiality instead of Recognition of Physical Form, or bodily sensation.

Dmytro wrote: "And then, with the complete transcending of recognitions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of recognitions of sense impressions, and not heeding recognitions of diversity, thinking"
The above translation is inacurate , that is why there is the misunderstanding that it is referring to the disappearance of the recognition of sense impressions.

"And then, with the complete transcending of RUPASANNANAM (PERCEPTION OF FORM, PERCEPTION OF MATERIALITY) ,with the disappearance of ALL SENSE OF RESISTENCE ( paṭighasaññānaṃ, patigha : repulsion, repugnance, anger, atthaṅgamā : setting down ), and paying no heed to (amanasikārā: not attending to) the perception of diversity (nānattasaññānaṃ )"

With Metta,
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morning mist
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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by morning mist »

Ñāṇa wrote:
morning mist wrote:It's true that " permeating the body" mentioned in the jhanas refers to the mental body rather than the physical body, because the perception of five sense objects & sense desires, perception of the things of the kama loka have been left behind in jhana.
Yes, but it's important to understand that what is designated as the mental body is not a disembodied experience.

[Q.] Joy (pīti) and pleasure (sukha) are said to be formless phenomena (arūpa-dhamma). How then can they stay permeating the body?

[A.] Name (nāma) depends on form (rūpa). Form depends on name. Therefore, if name has joy, form also has joy. If name has pleasure, form also has pleasure.
Hi Nana,

I am not saying that form disappear or that it doesn't benefit or become rejuvenated through the energy of piti ( rapture) and sukha , but just the Perception of form disappears . The Potthapada Sutta shows that as a person moves from jhana to jhana, various perception cease one by one, until eventually all perception cease at the state of " Cessation of Perception and Feelings.

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Assaji
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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by Assaji »

Hi Morning Mist,
morning mist wrote:" Nine successive cessations ( anupubba-nirodha):

" By the attainments of the first jhana, kamasanna ( perception of five sense objects & sense desires, perception of the things of the kama loka , perception of sensuality) cease (niruddhā);
Here you are adding Australian Brahmic Buddhism commentaries to the text of the sutta.

The suttas themselves explain Kāmasaññā differently, as the recognition connected with sensual desire -

Samanamandikasutta, MN 78:
Katamā saññā? Saññāpi hi bahū anekavidhā nānappakārakā. Kāmasaññā, byāpādasaññā, vihiṃsāsaññā – itosamuṭṭhānā akusalā saṅkappā.

‘‘Ime ca, thapati, akusalā saṅkappā kuhiṃ aparisesā nirujjhanti? Nirodhopi nesaṃ vutto. Idha, thapati, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi…pe… paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati; etthete akusalā saṅkappā aparisesā nirujjhanti.

What perception? Though perception is multiple, varied, and of different aspects, there is perception od sensual desire, perception of ill will, and perception of cruelty. unwholesome intentions originate from this.

And where do these unwholesome intentions cease without remainder? Their cessation is stated: here, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhana ... It is here that unwholesome intentions cease without remainder.
morning mist wrote:And why did he say that jhana is the practice of letting go ? If we look at the process , we see that to get into jhana we have to let go of the desire, aversion, etc..
Buddha didn't describe it as letting go, but instead as a step-by-step work that involves the development of wisdom:

Tapussa sutta
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Mahasaccaka sutta (MN 36):
I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Brahmavamso's approach is evidently different. A couple of quotes from his masterpiece "Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond":

"Happiness in meditation is important, and you deserve to bliss out! Blissing out on the meditation object is an essential part of the path." - p. 140

As usual, he conflates Nibbana with Nirodha-samapatti, adding the strange notion that this samapatti liberates:
"Within the perception of neither perception nor nonperception lies the end of all perception, the cessation of all that is felt or perceived, nibbāna. If the minds attends to this, the mind stops. When the mind starts again, one gains the attainment of arahant or anāgāmī. These are the only possiblities." - p.171

You mentioned the chapters on developing wisdom in his book. Frankly, I don't find wisdom in these chapters.

Metta,
Last edited by Assaji on Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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